Another toddler problem...

[caspercat]

DD 2.6 yrs old. I know this is a time for tantrums, defiance etc. TBH, 90% of the time she is really good. Been trying to be firm but fair - always praise the good, she gets lots of 1 on 1 time but can also play by herself well. She goes to nursery 3 days a week, i take her swimming once a wk & a toddler group on the Fri, then DH & i always do things with her on the w/end. DH is v good, he took her to the park yesterday & swimming this morn (cos we missed Thurs) to give me a break (am 38wks PG with No2).
I'm consistent with discipline - she promised she'd be a good girl for me yesterday at the shops, so i said she could have a comic. But she wasn't good - whinging, refusing to walk, saying 'i don't like it' for everything, so she didn't get a comic. She bawled all the way home, which broke my heart, but i knew i couldn't go back on it. At home she apologised, we cuddled & forgot it.
After swimming today, DH wanted to ask her a question - he got down to her level & said "Daddy wants to talk to you", but she just laughed, said 'no' & ran away. So he asked her once more, she did the same thing. Her favourite teddy got put on the fridge. So we tried it again - she said 'leave me alone' & pushed him. So, i put her in time out - have been doing this since about 2 yrs old. She is always v good, does her time & apologises. We move on. However today, we had the kicking the floor, sobbing, she wet herself (been toilet training for 4 wks, going v well), screaming for mummy & bear & no sign of calming down. I went to her to say i would talk to her when she calmed down - she did briefly, i cuddled her, then when i tried to explain why she's been out in time out, she hit me & it started again. So this time i just left her to it . She must've been crying for 20 mins . By this time i thought she'd most prob forgotten what the initial time out was for, so went to cuddle her till she calmed down. Then explained we just wanted to talk to her & it had all got a bit silly. She apologised to us both, & that was that!!
She's now in bed. What did we do wrong? She has excellent speech & understanding, so i don't think asking her to stand still & listen while we ask her something is beyond her. If we just let her say 'no' & run off, surely she's never going to learn to listen to us? But also, it seems like a HUGE drama over a small issue....
Sorry for massive post, but am a bit stumped - thought we were doing quite well till today....
Thanks for getting this far, any advice greatly received.

Well, today just a bad day, and everyone gets those, so don't read too much into that. I wonder if her good speech and understanding are tricking you into thinking she's a little bit more mature than she is?

dd is 2.4 mo, and I don't think she could get to grips with such a "long-term" reward as the comic after the shops - maybe break it down into smaller easier goals?

I'm not personally a big fan of time out - if I get frustrated I'll walk away from her, but the thing that stops her best is simply looking away and closing my eyes - I'm still with her, but not reacting, and that works quite well.

Re-reading your post, though, I'd put it down to her having a bad day, and try not to dwell too much on it. Even the most perfectly biddable of toddlers has them!

my dd was EXACTLY like that about 4 weeks after ds was born (she just turned 3 and this was 4 months ago). She was fine with him but just became horrid like that with us, would turn into a little girl we didn't know and would hit (not hard but in an agressive/angry way). i tried at first responding how I would have done had she done something like that before (most out of character) eg with time out. Then I realised she was confused and angry herself and couldn't express it properly and getting cross with her wasn't the way. I calmly wondered off if she did the nasty behaviours (spitting, agressively tapping more than hitting etc) saying 'well I don't like that, but I'll be just through here if you want me' she could do what she liked, run after me and keep hitting which I calmly ignored, sulk then run after me and tlak to me in which case I'd give attention and ignore the bad behaviour of minutes before (never refer to it I found best as otherwize essentially they connect the bad behaviour with the nice attention). I also ensured LOSADS of hugs in between the bad incidents, made sure I was at her level and giving her positive love alot of the time. It cured the behaviour almost instantly

However so I don't sound like some smug parent, we have new difficult behavours to deal with at the momment (whiney, endless whines) but at least the anger seems to have gone.

good luck

Thanks for replies. Habbibu, when i say shops, i mean we were in Sainsburys for 10 mins start to finish, and she asked for the comic literally outside - i know she can cope with that amount of time! And i know a lot of people don't like time out, but has always worked for us - she knows she's being ignored, & at the end she apologises, we kiss & cuddle & it's not mentioned again. It's more the" how do we get her to listen to us for 2/3 minutes without it escalating like today" bit that i'm concerned about how to deal with.
Thanks again both of you for your input x

'After swimming today, DH wanted to ask her a question - he got down to her level & said "Daddy wants to talk to you", but she just laughed, said 'no' & ran away. So he asked her once more, she did the same thing. Her favourite teddy got put on the fridge. So we tried it again - she said 'leave me alone' & pushed him. So, i put her in time out - have been doing this since about 2 yrs old. '

to be honest I don't think you were justified in putting her in time out for this
she was just playing a game
she is too little to be asked questions in such a formal manner
I think you should ease up on her a bit otherwise your in danger of not being listened to for the serious stuff like walking into the road, touching the oven etc

oh and confiscating her teddy as well, for what was just a game

Caspercat, your OP rings bells for me (dd1 was 2.8 when dd2 was born)

She might be freaked out (sub/unconciously by the new baby)

She is also only 2 and a half

Honestly, she will seem like such a baby to you when you look back in a year or so

Her behaviour is quite normal (ie, challenging!) for her age

Despite the good speech thing (dd1 was like this - people thought she was older than she was etc - they are only babies!)

I feel for you, being pg with a toddler is hard

Congratulations on the new arrival, btw

So we just let her say 'no', push us & hit us, & let her treat it like a game? That sounds like just letting her walk all over us! As i keep reading on here - 'you're the adult, they're the child'. And she got her teddy back - she just needed to ask for it when she calmed down. She plays plenty of games with us, but i feel she's old enough to be able to pay a little bit of attention when asked, surely??
Will take on board what you've said tho, i realise it did get out of hand. But DH wasn't really that formal, we just thought it better to get down to her level so she knows you're talking to her but doesn't get intimidated, rather than just repeating the same question time & time again....

agree with Habbibu and compo.
time out should be last resort IMO. just walk away if she is being silly (or turn it into a game - the goal is to get her to do what you want, not to punish her remember).

she went loony cos she felt wronged and that it was unfair. agree with habbibu. we all have bad days, parents and kids. i think i often expect too much from dd as she is pretty rational and verbal. they are so little still.

re getting her to listen: 'stop' with two handed gesture works quite well for dd and 'look at me'. i have yelled though 'oi LOOK AT ME' . like i say, we all have bad days!

Honestly, don't worry too much about it

She seems like she's testing boundaries

I'd let it go a bit... the new baby may make her regress a lot bit (did with dd1)

I agree with compo, I think she thought it was a game. Mummy or Daddy on the floor means playtime or shoes on in our house. Also agree with habbibu, its easy to think they're more mature than they actually are.

Perhaps if you have something to say to her just say it don't tell her you want to say something and then make her stop and stand still to listen. Too much wasted time for a fidgety 2 year old .

DS1 has always had ants in his pants. We've found if we have something particular to say or ask him that requires some attention we offer a cuddle and speak while he's comfortably captive in our arms.

no. don't let her hit you. say 'no, don't hit me' and walk away.

funny how 2.4 seems so young now that dd is 2.9 - yet am sure I would have felt she was so grown-up then.

anyway, just read you are 38wks preg. Go and have a cup of tea and some choc and forget about it!! You did well to keep your calm - poor dd got the brunt of my tiredness and bad temper at end of preg

(I reckon a newborn and toddler is much easier than being preg with toddler)

So we just let her say 'no', push us & hit us, & let her treat it like a game?

Casper, just had to respond quickly to this. Look at it this way, she felt you'd provoked her. You were trying to make her do something she didn't want to do. Her only way of showing her frustration at this age is to say no, hit, kick etc. We found that putting DS1 away from us a bit (sitting him on the floor at arms length) if he did this but still staying close by and being available for cuddles worked much better and resolved the conflict much quicker than allowing things to escalate to full blown punishment.

Personally, I really dislike the time out/naughty step approach, I think it sets up a pattern of rejection that undermines a child security, confidence and trust in you. Always explain why a behaviour is wrong/unacceptable but reject the bad behaviour not the child.

caspercat, I think everyone has those moments where you think "oh god, if I let her away with this she will turn into the monster from hell", but it isn't like that. You sound like you're consistent and agree with each other on a general approach - that helps a lot.

I do ask dd if I can talk to her, if I want to explain something, or get her to do something - if she runs away I don't go after her, though, unless I feel like a game too, as that'll be what it turns into. She usually comes back pretty sharpish.

Agree with umlellala - just say "don't hit me" and walk away - make it not interesting, not worthy of attention (not that I always practice what I preach, but it's much more effective when I do).

I do feel it's important to remember that most 2yr olds grow out of this sort of thing... ie they're not hitting/kicking etc forever

My 2.5yr old hit me in the face today. She was being stroppy and exerting her pissed off-ness rather than exhibiting a negative personality trait

She did it to her sister yesterday, and Dp the day before

We try and give it v little attention, to try and stop her doing it again

It really doesn't matter... she is lovely most of the time

If she's still doing it at 4 I'll take affirmative action

OK, OK, i know when i'm defeated .

Will just try the walking away thing. You're right Habbibu, i do have those monster from hell thoughts, which is really unfair, cos she's a lovely, happy gorgeous thing who i love to bits. She sleeps & eats brilliantly, & seems to be adored by everyone, we're really lucky. I think a lot of the problem is that DH, although v hands on & brilliant with her, has too high expectations, & immediately labels her as 'naughty' if she has a tantrum. I think i then over compensate, by proving i'm not a 'pushover' & being as firm as he wants me to be.

Will learn from today, & try not to worry myself to death that i've emotionally damaged her by making her have an overlong, pointless tantrum .

Of course, the rest of our afternoon was lovely & she was an angel. But then DH was out.....

Thanks for your advice, O wise ones xxx

Do NOT worry. She has come to no harm, and tantrums are part of being 2.

Casper - I just wanted to say I completely sympathise with you.

My DS1 is 2.7 and was just like your DD when DS2 was born 2 months ago - it was like he had a personality transplant overnight and he turned into the toddler from hell for a couple of weeks and it was a nightmare to deal with when we were tired and stressed with a newborn aswell - hardest thing ever tbh (sorry - don't mean to scare you!)

No advice on how to tackle it tbh - we introduced a reward chart and it has worked really well - he still has bad days (usually when he is under the weather) but things have gradually improved over the last 2 months so I am hopeful they will continue to improve.

Also, my DH sounds exactly like yours - he thinks DS1 is being naughty when having a tantrum etc and has too high expectations for him - Dh also gets it into his mind to do something (i.e. go for a walk) and then gets really upset if DS1 doesn't want to!!

I echo the poster who said that you will look back and realise what a baby she was at this age.I expected far too much of my daughter at 2 and a half,and part of that was because she had really advanced speech and had been talking for a long time,I forgot that she was still a baby,and now I regret it.It is still hard to get her to stand still and listen to a question,(she has just turned 4)but now I realise that she is still very small and I cut her some slack.I had another baby when she was 2 and 4m and I think that was part of it too,maybe the younger siblings have an easier time in this respect!