learning an instrument - what's your position on practising?

[elliott]

ds1 is just 7 and has started to learn the guitar (his choice of instrument, my idea that he might like to start one now).
We are running into a lot of resistance to practice, and I'm worried that this is going to put him off. On the one hand, I don't think there is any point learning an instrument if you don't practise, but on the other I wonder if I have unrealistic expectations?
I don't know whether to:

• let him carry on having lessons but not do any practice (but then he will make very slow progress)
• stop the lessons and wait until he is a bit older before we try again (but then am I letting him get the idea that you just drop these things?)

-be stricter about insisting on practice? And if so how without it becoming a point of conflict? I mean the last thing I want is for him to feel forced and turned off, but on the other hand I do think that there's not a lot of point in doing it without practice.

Well I confess that very often I did not. I was pretty good at music so I generally did OK by practising in bursts of activity - piano I was very keen, started very late, and practised quite well (16), guitar faded out when piano started, clarinet I dropped quickly, and violin I hardly ever touched. The last concert I had the misfortune to be pressganged into I held the bow a fraction above the strings and mimed the entire thing (hard work, as those violinists among you will realise...).

In those days even teachers were pretty slack about chasing homework and there was so much less of it.

am pmsl at miming on the violin - I learnt the double bass late (16) and was in the joint schools orchestra (mine and the boys' school next door) cos it is such a useful instrument - but I was relatively inept in comparison with the other strings players! Luckily the double bass is so low that it often can't be heard that well, so I used to play very quietly or mime as well if it got a bit tricky!

You used to be taught a proper musical instrument at school - it was free. That's why parents didn't give a fuck whether you practised. And back in those days parents were not obsessed about their children's education and extra curricular activities -they had fags to smoke and halves of lager and lime to drink.

The children I have taught that don't practise give up (usually in the first year), those that have a parent tell them it's time, get out the instrument if necessary and point out that nothing else happens until it's done carry on, and usually become self motivated. If they don't become self motivated by around 12 then yes, eventually they give up.

Some children are good with a time (say 10 minutes including getting guitar out), other respond more to being told they have to play 3 pieces 2 times each. Some children respond well to being "rewarded" for each phrase played correctly with a lego piece which they then make into a model to show me at their next lesson.

The last two years I have had to practise what I preach as ds has been learning the cello. He has been through all of these stages at one time or another (except the lego one as he will go back and practise something he has got wrong), and also I took notes in his lesson and then he would practise those things.

Some children exchange practise time for playstation time. Then they realise how short a time 10 minutes is!!!

twentypence - now that is really interesting. So you think being made to practice can really be beneficial in the end? Not sure I will need this advice as sadly dd seems to take after her father, musically.

I really wonder about this though. I do think its a bit sad that my parents never bothered about what I did. Violin and clarinet were free, but not guitar or piano (I had to fight hard to get piano) but they just sent me to lessons as long as I wanted to go.

Swedes: ''Back in those days parents were not obsessed about their children's education and extra curricular activities''

That was absolutely true - and I'm genuinely unsure how pushy a parent should be. I am entirely self-driven but struggle with self-discipline - would I be less so if it hadn't always been down to me? Or would things have gone better, sooner?

Don't you get free violin etc anymore?

might be able to help you with the self-discipline bit there, acinonyx - I was pushed some, because my parents struggled to afford our EC activities (not that we knew at the time!) and my school fees (now, that I did know) and so my mum did mention a fair bit that I should work harder to make the most of my opportunities (i.e. practise, do homework). I still wasn't very good at either. And in fact resented being pushed! and now have dreadful problems re. self-discipline (see the fact that I still have to do my tax return and what am I doing? sitting here in MN - the tax return will be done at the last possible minute, as always)

Yes and i here I am om mn and I should ahve been working after dd (finally) went to sleep.

So the moral is - whatever you do - you're probably doomed...

I suppose it depends on temperament. I don't think I would have rsponded well to being pushed at all. But a little interest and encouragement might have been nice (cue violins.....)

free ones of course!
my friend used to call it the vile-din - very accurate for school players, I thought....

As a summary in my experience.

If you are not going to remind your child to practise (because you don't want to) then don't waste your money on lessons when they are 6 or 7.

THanks for all the replies. I'm still confused about whether I should be a 'whip 'em till they do it' or leave it up to him...
Swedes, how to you enforce practice? What if they winge and whine and won't do it?

This morning we tried doing it before school - a bit more successful. We also left him to do it himself which I think probably helps as he was very keen to tell me which things he'd chosen to do.

I think perhaps we are going to have to make a set routine in the morning. I remember when he started having spellings he was similarly recalcitrant but that has improved, so I think perhaps I do have to create the structure at the moment.

i can't imagine adding to our battles by hassling DD to practice her violin (yikes - not exactly my favourite instrument at beginner level in any case !) she's 7, and volatile, though things are much better than they were. i feel it's up to her - we encourage her and are very positive but i can't face nagging her at this stage. it's all happened through the school and lessons cost me an astonishing £1 a week - i guess i would feel different if i was shelling out £16 or similar, admittedly!!

sorry - didn't read final page of thread - yes i agree with twentypence, in short. i wouldn't have pursued this myself at DD's age had it not happened through the school, simply bcs at this age and given her temperament, she has enough on her plate with school and sports and homework.

Ds (aged 8) has been learning the piano for just over a year. He does have to be reminded to practise, and sometimes encouraged, but will usually practise for about 10 mins most weekdays. Sometimes though, he will go up and play for ages, and start messing around making things up. I really encourage this, as I think it's important that he enjoys it. I have also stressed to him that if he practises regularly he will be able to play more interesting stuff, and therfore enjoy it more. I also found in the early days that rewarding practice with extra pocket money was a good incentive!

I'm split over the whip 'em/ leave 'em choice. Dd (10) plays 3 instruments. One is her serious instrument for which I pay for lessons. I have to nag her to practice.

Recorder is free at school and she does get nagged to practice at home yet is still one of the best in her group about to take Grade 1. She plays it at home for pleasure.

Finally piano - she does not have lessons at all but has a series of books to work through. She practices the piano loads!

I wish I could just leave out the nagging to pratice her main instrument - but I can't quite bring myself to do it!

DS 8 is bribed to practice recorder and is 'teaching' dh his other instrument so manages to pratice a few mins 5 times a week or so rrelatively easily.

My dcs started learning piano at around 7/8 and a stringed instrument soon after. I was of the laid back school & neither did much practice initially (to be fair the lessons were either free or very low cost, so I didn't have the waste of money aspect to agonise over).

One never really took to practising spontaneously and gave up piano after about 2 years - got a bit further with the strings, but chose to stop that too after about 3 years (having taken grade 2). The other gradually became more reliable about practising & was really quite good in years 6 & 7. He's got less diligent since, prefering to play 'fun' stuff rather than what he's supposed to (& never ever scales) but has still progressed well & is very competent on both his instruments. He does practice them more before exams too and because he plays in several orchestras & ensembles he does get a certain amount of 'practice' each week, even if it's not the pieces he's supposed to be practising.

He'll never be a virtuoso performer, but can play to a good enough standard to join any orchestra he's likely to want to &/or welly out some tunes on a piano to relax. Imo it shows that the laid back approach can work out OK.

benign neglect. Try it

We never did any practice (!) because I didn't even understand basics of violin playing until the teacher sent home a practice book from school and you had to tick every day 'short' or 'long' practice. Have started with 5 mins a day violin for ds1 (8) and it's doable because he knows it is so short. Hoping that he'll accidentally do 10 mins soon without noticing. Had to supervise evry second tho. Quite fun I mean it.

I'm a music teacher and also have a DS of 7 who has just started the guitar.

We do 2 minutes in the morning before school, and 2-5 minutes after school, almost every day.

This encourages the development of a practise habit and trains the muscles effectively, whilst avoiding fights. He is making really good progress.

Little and often is the only way to go - you just build up the time bit by bit.

My dd used to practice 10 minutes a day minimum religiously in Primary school. Often a lot more. however, she's so busy in Secondary school it's really hard to find the time, particularly as her instrument is loud and so she can't practice in the mornings as she used to now she leaves home so much earlier!

Her teacher is very relaxed, and if she hasn't practiced they just play together and do a bit of improvising - it keeps her hand in and she enjoys it. And it takes the pressure off. Her teacher is very good at giving her lots of praise when she does practice though - it is very noticeable when she has!

Thanks. I think little and often sounds like the right approach. We've managed two days of 5 mins so far!

yup - little and often.

speaking as a teacher here, makes a HUGE difference if kids practice. it really is worth the encouragement. so i'm in the every day they practice camp.

Read thumbwitch's account with interest. I studied piano till grade 5 and passed by the skin of my teeth. I hardly ever practised (my parents did not push) except just before exams and it showed. My piano teacher could tell and told me not the pursue any further.

I never looked back. Have not touched a piano since. All those years of lessons wasted.

Maybe if children don't practise, they are not keen. I know I wanted to learn ballet instead but my mother insisted on the piano.

yes - NEVER push your kids to learn an instrument they don't want to. waste of everyone's time. if you love the piano, YOU learn it, don't make your dc learn.

Exactly. I have suggested to a couple of parents that they take the lessons if the child is refusing to come (after all they've paid for a term in advance).

Then I ask the child what they would like to do, and suggest a lovely teacher for them.

I have turned a couple of children round - found out that composition and arranging pieces made one boy tick - and he is really enjoying his lessons now and doing heaps of work on the piano - just it's not called practise any more!

I taught music for about 15 years and found the little and often approach much more successful for kids. I encouraged them to link it to something they did every(school)day like watch home and away, and practise for 5/10 mins before that - they'll never forget when their fave prog is on, and getting them to do it beforehand means it can then be a kind of reward. Also, a timer helps, at least to begin with, they can see how long they've got left to do. Once they've established good practising habits they prob won't need one.