problem child

[Pwsimerimew]

I'm really at the end of my tether. Gorgous, funny, loving child at home turns into unrespectful, cheeky monster at school. Have been called in to school tommorrow to see head because of 10yr old son's behaviour. If you watched Dispatches last week, you've seen the kind of child he is. Turns tables over and hides under them, does nt do a stroke of work at school. How can I discipline him????? I bann him from using the computer (Which he loves) for a week, but it does NO good. HELP

Why do you think he changes so at school? Is he bored? Bullied? In with the wrong crowd?

I think you need to try to address the cause of the problem rather than the symptoms ...

does he have a learning issue?

My step son would do anything to distarc from the fact that he couldnt do the work and didn't understand it.

We were lucky and got him assessed fairly quickly, he had a statemtn by the age of 8.

You might need to push the school to look into it a bit more. There are tests that he can do primarily, without too much stress for him.

You need to nip it in the bud as he'll be in secondary before you know it, labelled and left behind

I've tried everything!! They have labled him with Aspergers for three years although no "official" diagnosis has been made - have been refered back to CAMHS. He has a one to one, but he just doesn't like Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays.....
I have tried bribery, threats, promises, banning computer for 24 hrs, a week, and today he's lost Wii and computer priveledges for two weeks because of his behaviour. What are my options?

Stillstanding, school have been asked to accomodate him incase he's bored, but nothing works. I refuse to even think about ritalin as he's (nearly) an angel at home.
He's a clown at school and the kids laugh at his antics, which doesn't help things really.

It sounds like the school needs to involve the behaviour support team and the educational psychologist. They should not be labelling anyone with anything!

Ok, some tough questions for you.

Are there any elements of his behaviour at home which you can imagine might escalate at school and cause problems. Things which are ok because he's on his own or in a small group at home, but in a group of 30, would be unacceptable?

What is his progress like at school? Is he a confident reader and writer?

Language is his strength I woild say, above average in both Welsh (first lang) and English. To be honest, what we do at home is relax and take it easy - there no rigid routine that he must follow as he does at school. We do have to give him verbal warnings for coming off the computer, eg, ten more minutes, but sometmes he'll still have a strop about this. We often loose him in supermarkets because he wanders off, which worries me, but not him. He's kind, considerate, polite with family and dfriends, no problems eating or sleeping.
To be honest, I think he'd be the same in any other school. I'm hoping that secondary school will suit him better with having lots of different lessons in different classrooms. Fingers crossed. (I won't cope with the next six years if we go through the same!)

You've highlighted a few things that may be causing him difficulties at school then.

"what we do at home is relax and take it easy - there no rigid routine that he must follow as he does at school"

"We do have to give him verbal warnings for coming off the computer, eg, ten more minutes, but sometmes he'll still have a strop about this."

"We often loose him in supermarkets because he wanders off"

If there is no routine at home, he may be finding it hard to conform to the structure and expectations at school. I'm not suggesting that you have a rigid routine at home, but your ds does need to understand that what happens at home, is not the same as at school.

It's not always possible for a teacher to give individual or even group pre-warnings of a change in activity. However, this may be what needs to happen at school to help your ds transition between activities.

He wants to do his own thing in supermarkets and is unaware of what others are doing, or are expected to do.

I can see why these things could cause problems at school. I think you really need to take the school's concerns seriously. Saying that you hope secondary school will suit him better is not good enough at this stage in my opinion. He's 10 and needs support to access school appropriately. If he gets lots in supermarkets - imagine the potential when he's moving between classrooms at secondary school.

Behaviour such as turning over tables at 10 and hiding underneath them is pretty extreme in my opinion (and I work in an incredibly challenging school).

If a child turns a table over in my classroom, I may need to remove the rest of the class to ensure their safety. This would obviously disrupts their education.

Continued disruption of the class, and putting others at risk would eventually necessitate putting a child on a fixed term exclusion in my school.

What agencies (other than CAMHS) have the school suggested involving?

Pwsimerimew - try posting this is the Special Needs section. There will be professionals and more experience over there. Not that these lovely ladies have not helped - they have, but you may find some specific information regarding his beviour.

Has he always been like this at school - since early age?

Hi, I ahve a child with asd and one who is 9 and diagnosed aspergrs / high functioning autism with exceptional skills (and I live in Wales LOL, though not native speaking). Can I help?

You say he was labelled... what's your take on this? My experience is that parents tend to have a clearer idea of their childs needs well ebfore nay professional (well, invoplved interested parents)> Does he fot the triad of impairments (on the national autistic website)? If yes with good langauge skills then he is AS Aspergers); if not then no, though h may well still have traits.

Punishments type things don't have a tendency to work with spectrum kids, especially in the context you are describing. DS3 might get dressed for PC time (obsesed) but thats it really. Behaviour needs to be managed ina different way, and the way to do that is trigger identification.

Now my DS1 is a nightmare in the playground but not the clasroom. The reason are related to sensory overloads, lack of routine etc. What goes on in your son's school that he can't hack? Does he have avisual timetable? IS the routine adhered to,, are class sizes sensibly sized, rooms kept relatively clutter and stimulus free? (if over stim an issue I heard of one boy who did amrvellously after the teacher turned his chair to a bare wall- it can be that simpel once you've found the issue).
Thing is it might be something you can never know about- a perfume someone wears, a sounds nobody else can pick up, I even had a client years ago who couldn't cope with my hair colour.

I think you need to go back to the start in this situation, start pulling every little bit apart and reintroduicng stuff.

Plus looking at dietary interventions, my ds1 is extremely aggressive. The only way we can even hope to work on that is by following a gluten and dairy free diet.

Please do come and see us on the sn section here; there's loads of us mums on there with kids on spectrum or with traits of.

Wow, thanks everyone. Littlfish, education psychologist, county special needs teacher all have been involved with trying different things at different times including, visual timetables, constant praising, time out for him is he's feeling out of control. Nothing much work for more than two weeks or so. Usually, be Wednesday, he's settled and when he works he does good work, when he talks he talks politely, and the teachers say there is no-one better than him when he's in the right mood.
What his triggers are, I have no idea. He leaves the car happy and promising to have a fantastic time at school. (This is an improvement as in the old school I had to carry him in over my shoulder).
When we first heard the word Aspergers and my ds'n name in the same sentence when he was six, we were shocked. We looked everything up and couldnt match any of the characteristics of As with our son. (at home)No obsessions, no strict routines on his part, no knowledge of one particular interest etc. So we fought it, we asked for a second opinion. Etc
Have also tried a gluten/ dairy free diet which did help but school/ GP offered no help or support in this so we had to stop.
Nice to be able to talk with you though.
Thanks for listening.

missionimpossible - Teacher in year 1 mentioned his inability to sit down at story time, and we said it was a hearing problem (Ha, how innocent). He did get grommets in both ears at this age, but things didn't improve in year 2 and thats when he was refered by school to an ed.psych. Nursery and reception class didn't report any bad behaviour, but inn fact the total opposite. Both these teachers thought the sun shone out of his * and could tell us often enough how lovely and bright he was. Teacher in Year 0 first told us how exeptionally bright he was. Thant was before " He's bright BUT...." which we get now.
We moved to this school in a different county nearly three years ago when DS was in YR3.

socail and emotional

flexibility of thought

language and communication

are the areas of the triad; if you can firt something into them then consider it.

social and emotional immeiately would be school behaviour I imagine; flexibilty of thought- rules such as needing warning to stop an activity (does he get that at school? an egg timer?); langauge- ah now. That doesn't need to be delayed, indeed shouldn't be (Sam was assessed last aged 6, came out 16-21 age wise). Its about literal speech, not getting certain jokes that are based on word lay etc.

Obsessions etc aren't necessarily part of it, though often manifest. They can be clues but it is the triad the ed psych should have used.

He has lots of friends at school , and we've seen him making friends quickly on holidays or at the park. Emotionally, I don't think he can read people very well. He can show empathy no problem, but I think he might be innocent and gulible where other people's intentions are in question.
There have been occasions where he's taken things literally. Earliest I can remember is when he was two we said "come back here" and he walked towards us backwards (It was funny at the time), and he gets in trouble at school if the teacher tells him to turn his chair around. She means to face the front but ds will turn it around 360 . Otherwise language and communication is fine.
My life, and certainly his, would be better if he didnt have to go to school. I wonder what the head will say tomorrow??????

Well- he doesn't have to go to school, but if you ever consider home schooling, then you need to find Riven as she's home schooled a child with Aspergers (even if your son isn't really Aspergic he does sound as if he has traits of.... and tbh the techniques I use with ds1 work as well on NT ds2, although that can't be reversed- ds2's NT stuff (naughty spot, pasta jar etc) won't work on ds1.

Education otherwise is a great link for info on that and school might well consider part time but noteveryone has the woek situation to manage it and there can be implications; it can be a challenge to get help whilst they are off (although I home edded ds3 until he had a statement, part of year R, and LEA were douby keen to get things in place for him so he could get back in their system).

Thanks. I don't know what i expected the head to say this morning but I guess i expected the worst. She just wanted to say that they're very worried that they are doing everything to help him to no avail, seems to be getting worse. Called my mam (ahh!) and she says that they'll teach him at home if need be. But y'know, he can be a stubborn little monster and if he doesnt want to work, he won't. Even for his adoring grandparents. I guess I'll have to accept that school's never going to be his thing.

Look yp deschooling- might be relevant?

If a school is doing everything it can in there opinion and there's still a problem then you are in a good position actually; if he ahsn't got a statement then now is the time (look at IPSEA website); if he has then you need to call an emergency review meeting and ask for extra support (eg from an asd team) to be specified.

Turning tables over and hiding under them btw is classic AS clasroom behaviour- usually a way of escaping a sensory overload, school should know this and provide time out sapce he can access.

Ritalin- I wouldn't give it to ds1 but if it a close call consider A) why they're offering it- are they suggesting he has adhd, either as a standalone or a comorbid condtion? If so why is this not being discussed with you? B) ritalin only works for the kids who need it- those who don't have ADHD will not respond in the rpedicted way (it is actually a stimulant but has an opposite effect in adhd children). If Ritalin will keep him in the school system then maybe find some other local aprents or people on here who use it and garner their thoughts?

If Head is saying she can't see what else they can do btw expect a follow up discussion about placement- if they suhggest pulling him out don't do it voluntarily, you'll be handing over rights for help... never accept any exclusion or similar without it requested by Head in writing. She might well be hinting about a special school, in which case they need to address the diagnosis issue so you can get the best placement for him (we'reat this stage with ds3 right now)

He was loosely diagnoses with mild AS and some ADHD traits when 6/ 7. It was the child psych at CAMHS who asked "what do you think of ritalin". I told him I would nt consider it just to get him to conform at school, seing as we like him as he is at home. Was very annoyed at the time because GP refused to prescribe Gluten free foods for him (due to lack of evidence), but psych mentioned ritalin. (i took that to mean they would think about funding drugs but not gluten free diet)
Its six months he has left at this school, they are trying to assess him so that the secondary school will be able to put him in the correct stream, but the way he's going he'll be put in the lowest set, even though he can do the work of the top set. WHat difference could homeschooling do in 6 months and ho do i go about it.
Head always insist that she'd never send a child into special school, adding that ds wouldnt be accepted anyway. Oh, and he's been statemented for the last 13 months and has 26 hrs one to one.
so many questions.....

A long shot and don't throw tomatoes at me ....

Are you into or have you considered homeopathy to help you ds? Take a look at the following (sorry don't know how to do a link & it is a bit long) :

www.trusthomeopathy.org/export/sites/bha_site/hh_article_bank/conditions_a_to_e/spring_2001.2_A DHD.pdf

It's an article on the British Homeopathy Association website by a woman doctor who treats children with ADHD (don't think it works on the autism spectrum however ??) She works out of a hospital in Great Ormand St. My DS is 6yo and recently dx ADHD and I can see allot of similarities in your description of his behavior. Some GP's poo poo homeopathy, but the ironic thing it they treat ADHD with a like for like drug (ie: give the child a stimulant to calm down an over stimulated brain), well that's how homeopathy works - ironic really . Worth a look?

Anything's worth a look! My mam, bless her, said something very funny and out of the box this morning, which she wanted me to consider. When DS was younger he used to tell us about different lives he'd had, before coming to us. Now at 10, when he is angry he will rant and rave in English which is his second language. Its totally out of character because we're all Welsh, goes to Welsh school etc, so..... my mam suggested he might be reverting back to one of his past lives when he's frustrated.
I'm so touched that she's thinking about his problems this deeply. I told her that i prefer her theory to having to think about him being schizophrenic. (i'm not worried about this really - its just that there seems to be two little boys inside him)
Will defo have a look to see whats on the site. Thank you.

Also, if you are up for an alternative ... try a Cranial Osteopath - it really helped my ds calm down and he really enjoys the massage

Had a quick look, seems a lot on it regrding children with behavioral problems - one mention of zincum for children with as.
thanks again

The cranial osteo near us specialises in ASD and related disorders- never tried it on my sn duo but was fabulous when ds4 had other problems.

For homeschooling look at education otherwise- DS3 wasnt yet registered in a school but that site tells you how to go about it if they are.

GP's aren't allowed to fund gluten free foods unless the person is Coeliac, sadly. That's aGovernment ruling not a GP one. When we star6ted GF free eating it was a pita but these days its far easier - Sainburys do loads and loads of things (does your lad get DLA? Think about it- sounds like he may qualify- no diagnosis needed- and it would cover the cost. DO NOT apply without getting advice from here, the cerebra website, or the NAS, the forms are a PITA to get right).

The casein free element of the diet was easy for us as I am casein free anyway and ds1 was since birth, but again lots out thre now- alpro are vaailable everywhere.

If you like a more holistic approach look at www.bibic.co.uk. They closed rheir Welsh one (was close to us in Usk) but still have one in Somerset and they can arrange accomodation for a nigth or two; it doesn't need a dx, because it assesses the child and works on what they need, rather than anything else. Don't be offput by the name- it was founded (used to have work links thre, before we moved here) over 30 years ago and dealt with a lot of brain injury then, but now works with kids with much less SN- eg dyslexia. Your son would fit in a treat I imagine. It does cost, but they are good at finding ways to help you get funding.

here

DS has had a good day today, hurray! Has asked if he could go on computer and I said no cause I've banned him for two weeks. Clarissimo - and advice on this?