Low level sibling bullying, lying and stealing - how to tackle 7 yr old ds?

[elliott]

Sorry this is so long

Ds1's behaviour is giving me cause for concern and I have no idea how to tackle it. The behaviours that are a problem include:

1. Bullying and taunting ds2 (who is 5). not all the time, but sometimes he just indulges his power and enjoys deliberately upsetting him.
2. Lying - for example, if we challenge him about something, he will give a barefaced and persistent lie rather than admit wrongdoing. This is not usually about anything hugely serious (for example I recently discovered that he has been in the habit of not cleaning his teeth in the morning, while assuring us he has), but it is wearing and worrying - I want to be able to trust him and not have to check up and think the worst all the time
3. Stealing - for example, I found a stash of chocolate decorations hidden in his room, and he also stole some bits of ds2's playmobil because he liked them.
4. Blatant disobedience - for example, I asked him to switch the TV off and do something else. 5 minutes later, he had switched it on again.

None of these incidents in isolation is particularly terrible, but I am at a loss as to how to respond, and overall I feel we are losing it slightly with him. I tend not to have any particularly consistent sanctions, usually I let him know why I'm unhappy with the behaviour and get him to put it right.
Mostly though I just want him to be NICE again. I find that trying to explain to him why these behaviours are unpleasant and undesirable doesn't seem to have any effect. Its like he doesn't really care about what people think of him.

We do try to praise good behaviour, and there is plenty of that, but I find this unpleasant side of him quite distressing.
Any thoughts?

bump anyone?

I bet he does care, just doesn't want to admit it. Would you, if someone confronted you when you had just done something wrong and you had the emotional and intellectual immaturity of a 7yo?

Sounds like you are very reasonable and he's acting his age. Undesirable behaviour but not earth-shatteringly bad.

I don't have a 7yo so can't give any brilliant suggestions but think you may have put your finger on at least part of it when you say you aren't necessarily consistent.

Have you had a chat with him on his own when you are both nice and calm and relaxed in a non-blaming kind of way? Just to check there's nothing really upsetting him and to see what ideas you can BOTH come up with to help him do the right thing?

p.s. I scoffed an overlooked selection box I found under a pile of stuff in ds's room. So am no better than your ds!

Sounds like attention seeking to me (sibling jealousy?).I would ignore as much as possible (difficult not to lose your cool,I know) and have 'time outs' on the situations that are esculating as they happen (physical,verbal and the blatant disobedience).

How about a chore/behaviour chart with a goal at the end? (a day out,new book,trip to cinema?)

For instance, I think fibbing about cleaning his teeth is very common at this age - it's one of those things your Mum nags you to do that really doesn't seem important to you and many 7yos would rather she assumed you'd done it than 'fess up. Adjust your expectations and check every morning. (I smell ds's breath which he finds quite amusing. But my ds is 5 so there may be a big gap between 5yos and 7yos for all I know.)

Thanks for responding.
What sort of consequences would you think are appropriate for these kind of incidents?
The reason I'm not consistent is because I am having difficulty coming up with a response I think is reasonable. I just wonder whether he is thinking I'm a bit of a soft touch or these things don't matter because nothing actually happens to him, other than that I get cross and tell him off.

We have tried star charts and other similar systems in the past but I'm not sure I'm convinced they are the right approach for this kind of behaviour - I want him to be honest and kind because they are the right things to do, (and avoid being mean because it is not nice for the other person) not because he might get a reward for it at the end.

I've eaten most of the choc decs we took from the tree on 12th night too.

My GP, when I was having a few issues with my and DD's relationship, recommended a book called the parent/child game. I'm not a great one for improve your parenting = improve your child because my memeory is too poor to remember what I should be doing!

It is about helping defiant DC to become more compliant through love and not punishment, so all low level bad behaviour is ignored, all good/average behaviour is praised.

My DD is a much nicer person and I like myself more (not a mean nagging mummy) if I follow the advice in the book.

I know what you mean about wanting them to understand kindness for kindness sake rather than for reward. But I think star charts do reinforce what behaviour is expected and help to get you over a sticky patch. Atm things aren't working - they might just get you back onto an even keel where you can work on the moral messages.

Can you artificially create opportunities for him to be good and then give him lots of praise? Acting out stuff, even if it's not natural or is a bit staged, helps it to happen for real. Plus lots of praise about being a fab big brother and talking up how big and clever he is compared to his poor little brother who is only five, poor thing?

Can you work out a way to give him a role in the family which is not 'the naughty one'? (Not saying you are singling him out, but it's easy to fall into if one child is at a charming stage and the other, um, isn't.)

My sympathies, elliott - this sound exactly like my DS at that age. It drove us all round the bend at the time, but it did get better gradually. Now, at 9, he can be quite nice at times!!
Seriously though, I agree that ignoring the bad behaviour is the only thing to do, and also LOADS of praise for when he is being nice. I also just used to hug and cuddle him loads, even when he was being a pain, just to remind myself how gorgeous he really was/is.

Hmmm, yes I am sure there is some jealousy going on, especially as ds2 is much more extrovert and sociable and can charm his way out of any situation...one problem is that ds2 tends to monopolise our attention because he likes to be with people whereas ds1 is happy to play alone. we've been trying to have one-to-one time which I hope will help. However can only manage this when dh and I are both around, otherwise ds2 kicks off big time.
Will try to big him up a bit and remember to praise.
But I find it hard to ignore things like blatant disobedience and picking on ds2. Surely then he'll think it doesn't matter?

I wouldn't ignore blatant disobedience or picking on his brother, but can you double-check that he's not being jumped on for every little thing? VERY easy to be on their case when they are being irritating and not to notice when they are being quiet and good. Especially if he's good at playing on his own and little brother is grabbing all the attention. I wonder if little brother is possibly winding big brother up so all you see is big brother being apparently naughty... my little sister used to pinch me in the car to make me pinch her back, she'd yell, I'd get told off).

My ds (8) starts to pick on dd (6) when he's bored and wants attention from us. Maybe your ds1 is good at playing alone but maybe he doesn't want to do that all the time, especially if, as you say, your ds2 monopolises your attention.

I manage the 1-1 sometimes by saying that they both have 40 minutes of me to themselves and they can choose what to do. It's really effective - after that they often play together.

Also - do you give DS1 extra responsibilities and privileges for being the elder child? I think that helps too - eg ds goes to bed half an hour later than his sister so has special time with both of us at the end of the day.

THanks again, it is helpful to get some objective reflections! Yes, I think we do tend to be harsher on ds1 than ds2. I don't know why, but obviously we need to keep it in check.
Perhaps we also need to be firmer with ds2, but it really is very difficult to get him to go away and do something by himself. Last week I was trying to do ds1's music practice with him (on my own after school) and ds2 just made it virtually impossible. I took him downstairs and set him up with some things to play with, but he still came up and posted angry scribbles underneath the door (to make quite sure we knew just how angry he was). Here of course the problem is ds2 - he is the master of gaining attention. How could I have ignored him in that situation?

elliott I would have just ignored the notes! But maybe the thing to do would be to say - right I'm doing this with ds1 for 30 mins and then I'll do something with you for 30 mins - but the deal is you must let ds1 have his time uninterrupted.

Or have a friend round for ds2 so you can do something special with ds1 while they play?

I think you SHOULD have higher expectations from the older child, in terms of behaviour, but this needs to be balanced with rewards for being the older one - in our case it's 50p more pocket money, later bedtimes etc.

love the angry scribbles, what a clever chap he is! But I think you are getting closer to working out what's going wrong. Ds1 has to see you resist ds2's blandishments when it's ds1's time. (And be conspiratorial with ds1 about it - flatter him as the older one by inviting him to giggle with you about how funny the little one is.)

Hi Elliot - When mine were younger, i used a chart, not a sticker chart, but a kinda you have to earn your privellegs chart.

For example brushing your teeth earns you 2 points, no name calling earns you 2 points, doing as asked earns 2 points. Then add them together for a daily total and reward.

Rewards for 2 points a desert for pudding, 4 points stay up for 15 mins later, 6 points 30 minutes of your time doing something of their choice. If they can manage to reach a certain total at the end of the week, a friend round for tea or a trip to the cinema etc.

Once points have been earned you cant take them away and you are not expecting perfect behaviour, they can still receive a reward on a daily basis.

We've tried reward systems before but we are really not very good at following them through, so I think we have to find a different more immediate response.
I did ignore ds2's notes, but by then he had already a)soaked up about 10 minutes of my time and b) made me pretty angry with him so he had achieved his objectives...plus it did make it difficult to concentrate! And it didn't help that ds1 didn't really want to do his practice so I was pretty annoyed with him too - it was just one of those crap mum moments all round...

I think the age of seven must trigger something in children to start lying about teeth-cleaning. I've been having battles with DD over the issue and I also discovered she'd been lying to me that they'd been done .

She's also become more adept at blatant lies over other things - insisting she's read her book when I know full well she hasn't. It's hard to know how to react to this since I've always had a strict approach to honesty.

I think maybe this is an age where they deliberately start testing boundaries. I think in my DD's case, peer pressure is already playing a role.

Sorry I don't have much advice, but just wanted you to know that you're not alone!

thanks socks, it does help to keep it in perspective and not over-react. I have been reflecting on what I was like as a child and I have to say I did some quite awful things, but now I consider myself to be pretty honest and considerate so I guess I just have to keep faith with him!

I know this book is recommended quite often on MN - so sorry if I'm being repetatie - but it really is brilliant - 1-2-3 Magic. It specifically covers things like lying and really helps to put it into perspective for you and gives immediately effective tecnniques to use to stop undesirable behaviour and start desirable behaviour. Well worth a read - I got it from Amazon.

I agree very much that the age of seven seems to be a trigger - is it the beginnings of independence maybe?

I saw it with DS1 (now aged 9) and am beginning to see it with my DS2 (also 7) now.

I wonder if it is partly just the dawning realisation that life is not Completely According to your Mum and Dad? They start watching slightly more grown-up stuff on TV (no more CBeebies, now it's all CBBC), they read different stuff (no more Thomas the Tank Engine, now it's Horrid Henry and Jacqueline Wilson), they mix with other children who may not be quite as compliant as we expect ours to be... and so it goes on.

I do think some of it may be peer influenced. But writing it down has really helped and I think we do need to take some steps to stop ds2 soaking up all our attention. I think its basically ds1 showing that he needs some too (he just has rather less effective skills!)

This all sounds familiar, my 8 year old daughter seems to be unable to do anything we ask her without kicking up a fuss...even such a simple request as put your shoes on is at the very least met with "in a second" or "not yet, i'm doing something".

My DS2 is an attention "sponge" too .

I have no real advice to offer but it has suddenly reminded me that I used to do this!

When I was about 8 or 9 I used to lie about all sorts of things and used to steal really insignificant things from friends of mine. I remember once I gave a friend a tiny ornament of mine and then stole it back . Looking at it objectively there was probably quite a lot of low level bullying of said friend on my part too.

I'm not painting myself out to be a nice child am I but I'm sure I was and it didn't last long. I wasn't unhappy at the time or have any particularly nasty feelings - I think I was just curious about what I could and couldn't do.

I used to set fire to things as well to see how they would burn!