Please come and talk to me about toilet training - particularly if you've had a boy

[lisalisa]

I am posting about ds2. He's 3.2 yrs old and number 5 in the family. All my other kids trained between about 2 and 3 yrs old and all in a fairly relaxed manner.
I started ds2 pretty late at 2.11 yrs and for the last 3 months we've been on and off. Now - for last week we've gone nappy free and I am reaching desparation. Ds2 has not managed to avoid one wee in his pants or a poo. He will wee ( but not poo) in the toilet when i ask him if he needs to go but he has not managed yet to interpret the feeling of needing to go and asking to go ( or going himeself - he doesn't need to ask - toilet is all set up for him with step and little sear nearby).

He is going through abotu 8 pairs of patns and trousers per day at least andthis has been going on for 7 days. surely by now he should be able to recognise the signs for when he needs to go and be able to articulate this? He is a very verbal child in other ways - articulate and intelligent. It just seems in this area that he has almost relinquished control to me so that he will go if asked but will never ask to go and iwill just wet.

Please someone adivse what i should do from here>

DS didn't start to get the hang of it till 3.5. I didn't really push it as he was very speech delayed so couldn't communicate need to go etc yet and was not interested in the potty. It just clicked all of a sudden with him - he started copying what I did on the toilet! I would be inclined to give a break for at least a month.

totalchaos - I'm a bit worreid that if I give it a break it sends the wrong messge to ds as we've had a few on off attempts ( althojgh not usually for more than one day ) before and now we've got this far ( albeit without results ) I feel I should continue.

Apart from ds having speech delay did he have any other issues that made him late? I hope you don't mind me asking and being direct but its generally acknowledged that 3 is the latest a child should be toilet trained so interested to know if this benchmark is just plain out or if there are any reasons your ds did it late or mine is not managin it?

according to cough one of Gina Ford's book, 40% of boys aren't toilet trained by 3. I don't think that 36 months is a hard and fast rule.

Regarding other issues - hard to say - basically for some bizarre reason DS barely developed in language and socially between 2 and 3 - so possibly that delayed his toilet training. He did get assessed and I was told he was probably not ASD.

Boys are often slow to train. My newphew was nearly four before he had any clue.

I suggest you take a break until Easter. Then put him into pants and tell him that every time he does a poo or a wee in the toilet or potty he will get a bit of easter egg. Don't nag him, don't tell him off about accidents or anything. If he has an accident then just tell him "next time, do your poo or wee in the potty in the potty and you will get some chocolate."

I did this with my son when he was three years and three months. The first day he did 15 wees in the potty, the second day he did nothing in the potty as he felt sick and then he was waking in the night to wee in the potty and get his chocolate. He was clean and dry both day and night in less than a week. We got him off the chocolate by a don't offer, don't refuse approach and offering a range of other treats like playing on the computer.

What did our mothers/granmothers' generations do dofferently - they all seem to be astonished that children aren't potty trained by 2?

Reallytired - had you tried earlier or was it your first attempt at 3 yrs 3 months?

I am a bit under pressure as he started a pre nursery in Seoptember where he was supposed to be toilet trained - it is attached to my children's school and i knew of this condition when ds start4ed. I informed the staff that he wasn't toilet trained and they agreed to take him ( it was for a group of children turning 3 that term) on the understanding that he wore nappies and if he made a poo we would come and change him. As teh term wore on the staff grew really attached to him and did not call us to change him anymore but did it themselfe3s. I always felt bad about that though as its not part of their job and contradicts admission criteria. I told them i would give it a good go for ds to be trained by January term. Also our nanny/housekepper had agreed to take on extra cleaning duties ( thereby saving us expense fo additional cleaner - I and dh work full time 5 days per week) when ds started going full day to pre nusery which was supposed to start in Jan. Tney will only take him full day however if he is clean and dry as at the moment he is mornings only.

However - all that can hang as ds is more important.

if you think i shoudl wait then i will - I'll give it a few days and if no joy then wait another 2 months and try.

Totalchaos -interesting you should say that about your ds - although mine has very delveoped verbal skills his socail skills have not matched that and have concnered me . I have not had him assessed as level of concern is not great but I wonder whether social skills is linked in some way to phsyiological skills like tiolet training?

Old style Terry nappies - we felt wet and didn't like it....

Crush - feeling wet doesn't seem to bother ds who worn't even tell me ( if he's engrossed in something) that he #s done a wee in his pants - that surely must feel uncomfortable?

Agree with Reallytired that you should take a break. I believe it's a switch. Give it a few months and you'll probably find it really easy.

I bought DS a packet of Thomas the Tank Engine pants and told him that if he could have one pair a day, with plain, boring pants thereafter. It worked a treat.

I would put him back in pull-ups (not full on nappies) and take him to the toilet regularly, every time you go. Get him used to weeing in the toilet but make the whole wet pants thing a non issue. Make a big hoohar about him weeing in the toilet, stars on a card building up to a meaningful treat or some such. And ignore the wees he does in his pull ups other than just reminding him...where do we wee...we wee in the toilet. Make the whole experience a positive thing to get it right rather than a disgusting, yukky thing that if he gets wrong it makes mummy cross (even if you try not to show it they know).

Ignore poos for now. DS1 wouldn't poo in the toilet for ages after he was dry all day, he'd wait til he had his night time pull ups on. Said it felt weird and frightened him. No big deal, they get it when they're ready.

I thought nurseries couldn't refuse on the grounds of toilet training as its a disability issue???

Have a slight change of tack and instead of asking him if he needs to go to the toilet, tell him ''don't forget to tell me if you need to go to the loo''.

Have a pot of chocolate buttons that he knows are his treats for weeing in the loo.

Day one- you take him to the loo, if he wees/poos, give him lots of praise and give him a choc.

The next day, tell him he has to tell you if he needs to go and then he'll get his choc. Give him a choc if he tells you he needs to go. Nudge him to tell you if he needs to go....etc.

I also used to get my dcs to practice what they had to say ''what do you need to tell me if you need the loo?'', ''I need the loo mummy!''.

Get your older dcs to model it too!

We were in the frustrating position that my son was 100% at using the potty when bare bottomed at two and half years old, but as soon as he wore pants then he treated as a nappy. He had big problems learning the difference between pants and a nappy.

I had two failed attempts at potty training. Each time I gave it about a week and then put him back into nappies for about three months. There is really no point in flogging a dead horse.

I had the following to help my son. I got a doll that weed from Woolworths (I am sure you can get them in other places) and I also used this book.

toilet learning

It has instructions on how to use the toilet. The language is very american, but it did work for my son.

As far as the older generation goes, mothers often lie about their children's development whatever their age. All you have to do is look at the gifted and talented section to see mums who claim that their child is on stage 10 Oxford Reading Tree books at the age of 3.

Also in the past people were much more prepared to accept accidents. There is not a lot of difference between hand washing a pair of trousers and pants and hand washing a terry nappy.

Haven't really got any advice but want to sympathise as have just put my DS(2.9) back in pull ups after a whole month of no nappies. Really didn't want to but took the advice from MNers as like you I was washing 6 pairs of wee/ poo trousers per day and just didn't realise that he's probably not ready. I could hardly even go out of the house with him for a month.

I was desperate to potty train before new baby arrives this week but believe me we're a lot happier and more relaxed as a family these last couple of weeks now that the pressure's off and we'll just try again in a couple of months. I certainly won't try next time for more than a couple of weeks as it's so stressful if he doesn't pick it up.

Hope you manage to have the courage to postpone too or find a quick solution that will enable him to pick it up quickly...

Potty training DS1 was sheer HELL I tell you (so bad infact, I started a support thread under my usual nickname Washersaurus).

We started the day after his 3rd birthday after previous attempts were aborted due to the undue stress caused to me

It has been really slow progress; just as we thought we had it cracked, he has started weeing his pants and trousers, and over the floor too . So we are back to washing lots!! I think he is testing how long he can cope with the feeling of needing to wee without actually going to the toilet....All I can say is AAAAAARRGH!

My son is seven years old and has never had a toilet accident at school and doesn't wet the bed at all. Maybe he was later than average, but it hasn't held him back in life.

No one is interested at what age he was out of nappies. In a lifespan of 70 to 80 years its not important when a child become continent.

My ds is 3 and a quarter and completely uninterested in potty training.

He hates pants, doesn't want to sit on the potty or the loo, or does and then does nothing. then 10mins later wets himself.

We tried 3 days of potty training last week and then came to the conclusion that we'll leave it for a month and then try again.

He is quite set in his ways - lovely, but I suspect that until it's something he wants to do, he isn't going to do it. I also think that he isn't entirely getting the sensation or the connection between full bladder/wet trousers. So he isn't anticipating the wetting.

Oh and dd was out of nappies at 2.5. Took about 3 days for her to get it and I can count the accidents she's had on one hand since then.

lisalisa, my ds is now 4. He announced on the 23rd of December last year at just over 3 that he didn't want nappies any more after a couple of months of gently trying to get the idea to take hold. He did this the day that 12 people descended on our house for christmas. He then wet and soiled absolutely constantly for the next 6 weeks but resolutely refused to go back to nappies. It was pretty hellish but then one day he just did it and I think my patience and willingness to just stick with it really helped. He was a bit later again with poos and I ended up using a technique I read about on here when he was about 3 and a half. I told him about sneaky poo and how sneaky poo liked to trick little boys and girls and go into their pants when they least expected it. Some children are very, very clever, much cleverer than sneaky poo and if they think that sneaky poo is going to go in their pants they rush to the toilet and make it go in there instead and doesn't that give that old sneaky poo a surprise. It was an instant success with him and now he is fine both day and night.

You have my sympathy lisalisa, We had lots of abortive attempts to train ds and finally had some success at 3.5 - 6 weeks later we were about 80% there I would say and now 6 months later we are about 95% there. I had really been hoping for the switch thing but it has been a long haul. If he won't tell you that he has had an accident and doesn't care then I definately think put it off for a bit longer. Mind you wees in the toilet are encouraging so I can see why you have stuck to it for as long as you have.

Good luck, he will get it one day

lisa, your story rings major bells with me. I started DS at 2.11 ish. He didn't want to come out of nappies, but I had nursery pressures, too. So, I whipped him out of the nappies, into pants, and spent almost the next month washing clothes instead of nappies. It wasn't that he couldn't - he did the first two days without an accident! - he just didn't want to. Control, control, control! It dawned on me nearly one month into the process that he had perfect bowel and bladder control. Ditto Mummy control. After a completely disastrous trip out, which resulted in him coming home naked from the waist down, I had a Damascan momemt - what did it matter? The only one getting upset was me! I explained to him that I had seen the light - I genuinely wasn't bothered any more about whether he had an accident because I realised it was only washing. There'd be no more entertainingly cross mummy - we'd have one change of clothes with us when we went out and when that was gone, it was gone. We'd just have to go home, without any scenes. Result? We had no further accidents for over 6 months (and only started having them again when he started over-estimating how long he had to get to the loo, and a sticker chart dealt with that one). I guess what I'm saying is: once the little tykes lose the power to twist your tail over potty training, they'll stop trying to do it. It's different where they're too young or physically not ready, but when they're just exerting control, you need to really and truly relax (DS could even tell the difference between me pretending to be relaxed and actually being relaxed!) and by letting them 'win', you'll 'win' in the end.

I dont think the nursery can refuse to take him until he is clean and dry, that would be against the Disability Discrimination Act and against The Early Years Foundation Stage legal requirements, so I would challenge them on that. My advice would be just to go easy on him, put him in pull-ups and just keep taking him every couple of hours. It seems like it will go on for ever but in a couple of months time you will be wondering what all the fuss is about. My DS was 3 and a 1/2 before he had any idea, and this is not unusual, I have worked in pre-schools for nearly 20 years so i have had lots of experience of potty training.

Thanks everyone - busy day yesterday so no time to come back and checkj replies.

We;ve decided to put ds back in pull ups. I asked him yesteerdy monring what he'd rather do and tbh he seemed confused and for a moment i wavered. ~then I remembvered all the wet clothes and my increasing frustration ( which was starting - in an ever so tinsy way) to show with ds which is not fair at all - and perservered and told him that we'd have a little break and a morning out at a soft play centre. He enjoyed that enormously and hasn't mentioned pants in the last 24 hours. I'm relieved too!!!

Re the nursery - it is a private school so I think htey ccan stipulate what they like tbh - in any case the staff are wonderful - everything i'd want for ds - interested, calm, wamr and engaging. they have changed pooey nappies severall times each time without complaint or fanfare and i have no wish to rock the boat - he'lljust have to continue going mornings only at the moment. Ds is a very sweet, compliant and intelligent little boy who the nursery adore ( as he always listens, isn't disruptive , plays engagingly and responds well in cicle time and early learning goals ) and i don't want to spoil this .

thanks again everyone from one less stressed mummy!!

Btw - love the sneaky poo tip!!!

According to a friend with a dad who is a consultant urologist, the outer range of normal for being toilet trained in the day is 6. There would be very little intervention from doctors before this stage. Night toilet training would not be considered worthy of intervention until at least 7.
The whole idea that children should be toilet trained by 2 or 3 is entirely artificial and relies on mums being trained rather than the children. Not surprising when our mums had to wash out terry nappies, though.
If he has no awareness of needing to go to the loo, he's not ready, regardless of age and I'd leave it. No point stressing him or yourself out. I really tried to push it with dd1 and ended up putting her back 6 months. After taking some advice, we just left her alone and at 3.9 she announced one day that she was wearing pants now. Never looked back.

No advice to give, but just wanted to thank you lovely mumsnetters for putting my mind at ease. My DS is just 2 and I'm already getting the 'haven't you started potty training yet?' bullshit questions. It's doing my head in! DS will be 2.5 when my new baby arrives, and I don't even want to contemplate it before then. I obviously will, if DS dictates that the time is right, but I've now got plenty of tips and also, comebacks when I get the dreaded questions.

I love Mumsnet!

Hi - just recently toliet trained my ds same age and same problems.
We said he could have a very much wanted Thomas the Tank bridge when he doesn't wear nappies and there are no accidents.
He had to go for about 6 weeks before we got him the bridge.
Also I ignored accidents at the begining and when they continued happening I started to mildly say 'ds you must remember to go to the toliet.'
This worked for us.
Good luck.