Very aggressive 8 year old daughter - I'm finding it hard to cope

[scatterbrain]

Well - dd has never been an easy child - I used to post about her a lot. She's 8 now and I am finding it so hard to cope with her - my relationship with her is fast degenerating into the same relationship that I had with my own mother - which is not and never has been good.

dd is just so very agressive - she flies off the handle at the slightest thing - yells and screams at me all the time - point blank refuses to do anything she is asked and is generally very hard to live with.

Dh and I are very stressed out about it and are barely speaking to one another. We both work full time and I run around like a blue arsed fly doing virtually all the school runs myself (we have no help and can't afford any !)

I really don't know what to do - I dream (literally) of running away and getting away from them both. I am probably depressed still - I was on Prozac for a year but came off it as I didn't feel it was helping - just dulling - and I have been seeing a counsellor, but not really helped much.

Just don't know what to do - have read so mnay books about difficult children - but nothing seems to work - am coming to conclusion that she and I just do not get on.

She is very sweet and quiet at school and everywhere else - it's just at home she is a nightmare. My mother says I have spoiled her and so it is my own fault!

I don't know what to do really - I feel like I need Supernanny to come round - dh thinks dd needs to see a psychiatrist - I just want to disappear.

She just seems so angry - and I get the brunt of it. I guess the problem is me as I can't cope with it.

Has anyone experienced this and managed to sort it out?

Here's an example - I just went upstairs to get dressed - whilst I was in the bathroom she came and stod outside the bathroom door - banged on it and started singing Baa Baa Black Sheep at the top of her voice against the door whilst stamping her feet. Dh shouted up for her to stop it and she refused. When I came out she was lying nude on my bed - I asked her to go to her room and get dressed and she screamed at me that she hated me and wished I was dead. I took her to her bedroom and shut the door, went back into mine and closed the door. Started getting dressed and she started banging on the door again.

I know she's seeking attention - but she gets loads - she just seems intent on irritating me.

Eventually she came out wearing shorts and a vest - I said that she would be cold and should dress for the winter and now she is screaming her head off and banging around in hyer room. I know when I go upstairs she will ahve got all her clothes out and they will all be in a heap on the floor.

What to do ?

She is obviously seeking attention and negative is better than nothing, she also appears to be very angry.
Have you tried sitting down with her when she is calm and in a good mood and discussing her behaviour? Do you do fun things with her? I would be inclined to give her responsibilities now that she is older. Ignore a lot of the attention seeking behaviour, don't even get drawn into discussion about it. Spend time with her when she is being good.

This sounds very complex and I think needs specialist intervention. It sounds to me as a family that you are all unhappy and the whole dynamic of the family is very angry and shouty. It must be very wearing for you

I would ask your GP for a referral to either CFT (Child and Family Therapy) or CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service). They can help you all with some strategies for managing her behaviour that involve the whole family.

I hope things get better for you all.

Thank you both!

Yes she gets tonees of one on one attention from both of us - we play games with her, take her cycling, swimming and do lots of things like cake making and craft. Honestly she gets tonnes of attention - she just seems to crave constant attention - of a negative or positive nature. She doesn't really seem bothered which sort.

I have discussed it with her several times, explained how she makes us feel etc - and she is always sorry and contrite - but then does it again within hours.

Right now she is standing in front of me eatng a carrot and prancing around so I will look at her not at the computer screen. It is so constant - she gets up at about 6am every day and from the moment she wakes up demands attention. She refuses to play quietly or read in the morning - if she is awake then we have to be awake.

I think you're right - I will take her to the GP - she's acting like a 3 year old - now she's making monkey noises and jumping up and down.

have you tried NOT giving her any attention (even negative attention) when she's being difficult? (ignore, ignore,ignore,ignore)

I can sympathise with you here, DD1(6) can have an aggressive attitude and weekends can be extremely hard work and I do worry how she will be in the future. Everything sometimes just seems to be very trying with her. I find that her problem mainly is boredom, she doesn't know how to entertain herself as like yourselves, we have given her a hell of a lot of attention since birth and no-one can entertain their child 24 hours a day, children have to learn how to entertain themselves.

Is there anything she is interested in that she would enjoy doing on her own? DD1 loves doing mazes and puzzles on my Dad's Ipod Touch, she is a bright girl and gets frustrated very easily so doing things that make her concentrate really helps her.

I agree with what sidge has said.

I presuming she is an only child.

Sorry - PC crashed then

Yes she is an only child

I have no idea what I was like as a child - my mother was of the extremely strict school - children are to be seen and not heard and although I remember arguing with her when I was a teenager I can only remember being too scared to say or do anything as a young child. My mother has a personality disorder though - and I don't - so I am not sure it is quite the same.

Do you really think telling her how she makes us feel is too much for an 8 year old ? I really feel that she needs to start taking responsibility for her actions. She has missed parties in the past and had privileges (like DS and TV) removed as punishments but doesn't seem to care or learn from it. Surely understanding that you have upset someone is an important lesson to learn ?

It sounds as if she doesn't know how to amuse herself. Is she a good reader? At that age I was a real book worm so happy for hours. If she has the mechanics of reading but won't, you could have a chart with books read, and a treat when she finishes the book-but she has to be able to explain what happened. She might then start to read for pleasure.
If she likes baking and craft activities you could give her the materials and leave her to it.
Does she have friends around to play?

She's a brilliant reader - reading age of 14 apparently and reads loads of books. However - she will not/cannot read quietly to herself. She has to read us bits of the book - if not all of it. And she will not settle down and read for more than about 10 minutes.

Likewise with craft (haven't tried letting her cook alone yet)- she will do it for 10 mins but then shouts for one of us to help her and will not let up. She is a terrible nag - or should I say a brilliant nag!

She just seems so needy - I thought by this age that she would be becoming a bit more self sufficient I suppose.

She has friends around occassionally - and it's a dream as they go off and amuse each other - it's the only time I get any peace! But as I work very full time they are limited to weekends and of course we have lots of other stuff to do at weekends too - and you don't always want another child round when you are decorating/cleaning etc

I think she is under so much pressure to conform everywhere that when she gets home she blows her top.
She will see home as the "safe" environment so in a way her blowing her top there is good, in a way.

She needs a way to wind down, relax, use her imagination, let out her emotions.
Saying she doesn't mind the punishments may well be bravado.

Did you ever discuss emotions with your mother? Did she discuss them with you? Does your DD discuss how she feels (rather than what she wants?)
Do you ever say "wow, what a day I've had, some people really made me annoyed at work" or similar?
She may then be able to say "at school X did this and I was annoyed" or something.
My DD gets a mood on her (an only child) and I discovered last week a child had been picking on her and she was upset but it was manifesting in her answering back to me and disobeying me...so we talked about how some people are horrid, or how we don't like some people. Her behaviour completely calmed down.
If you discuss your day and how you feel this may give her an opening. My DD had a bad dream once and I told her I once had a bad dream and she was so interested that it happened to me too that she stopped crying and wanted to know what my dream was. Now she chats about her dreams all the time and how she felt about them.

This "emotional langage" stuff may help.

Miggsie - yes I do try all that. We have half an hour in the car to school each way and I initiate many of those sorts of conversations. Typically she will tell me to shut up about my day as I'm BORING her - and if I ask her about her day she clams up.

We had a bullying issue last term which I found out about through her friend not through her - and I did think that was causing the bad behaviour back then - she changed schools in September (only partially becuase of the bullying) and she loves her new school - I guess in some ways she has not fully settled in yet as she is still sussing out who she wants to be friends with etc- and I did say "no playdates" for the first term due to work - so maybe I should dive in with that in January to help her bond with a few kids?

Dittany - I appreciate your comments but she would have me actually dress her if she had her way. I'm not dressing an 8 year old I'm afraid.

Take your point about parents feelings though.

Wonders will never cease - she has just been clambering all over the sofas - and I said to her "If you're bored why don't you go and read in your bedroom" - and she has gone - 10 mins so far

I get the impression that she feels work comes first with you and your DH and she comes third. She seems a very intelligent 8 yr old so I would sit down with her and your DH when all is calm and tell her which behaviour you don't like, ask her why she does it and how she thinks it can be changed.
Ask her if there is anything she would like changed (explain if it is impossible) but try and reach some compromises. Trade amusing herself for doing something with her so that she isn't looking for you to amuse her all the time.
I tell mine that it is good for them to be bored and that I am not entertainments manager. I would tell her that you are having half an hour to yourself and she will have to amuse herself, and then ignore her- don't even enter a discussion about it.

My dd is also 8, and an only child. More than anything she simply wants to be with me.

We do some 'fun' things together, but there are times when I will get her to read a book in the same room as me (rather than sending her into another room) when I am doing paperwork. I also try to engage her in helping with household chores - unloading the dishwasher, sorting laundry, hoovering crumbs from kitchen floor, etc. Of course, it takes longer but she is happier with a project that is where I am.

It becomes a real spiral when an only child gets into a 'bad phase'. Rather than being irritated (and understandably) pushing her away, can you engage/include her in what you're doing?

I also tell dd when I will play with her, so she knows her time is coming and she doesn't pester in the meantime. What if you said 'I will play X with you at 7, but until then you need to find something to do'. Somehow telling dd what I will do and when makes a big difference.

Also, dd has learned that nasty behaviour doesn't get her anywhere - it backfires as she is put into her room.

You have said that she is very sweet and well behaved in school. I assume that she doesn't get 'full on' attention 100% of the time in school.

what do you think causes the difference at home? Not being snide, it is an honest question. Do you think that she knows that she will 'get a rise' out of you if she acts badly and that this doesn't happen at school?

Oh poor you, we went through all this with DD1 too.

Can only give you suggestions, hope they help in some way.

It's that whole negative attention is better than none thing you've got going on.

We do this thing after school I read about somewhere, instead of boring each other with long tales of he said, she said.. I ask each of the girls " what was the best thing that happened today?" and I answer their question on my best thing.

I also think that especially at a new school she needs your help to make new friends. You really need to have them round for tea. I know youre working but whatabout an hour one sunday afternoon?
She might be really struggling now the novelty has worn off.

Agree with earlybird, if you can include her in your routines that would be calming for her. Could she help get tea ready? Do you eat tea together and chat about stuff?
Could you make stuff together one evening like decorations for the xmas tree?

Listen, its all very well me spouting off with well meaning advice but believe me, we really went through it so I do understand how hard it is.. (With ours it turned she was also going into puberty early at 9 poor lamb).

And when you feel crap Scatterbrain, tell her

Keep the old chant in mind, it's only a phase, it's only a phase.

Thank you all.

I will try harder and hopefully she will respond well. EEek - Puberty at 9 - that is scarey stuff. Mine does seem very hormonal at times and is quite a big girl for her age (wearing 11-12 clothes) so I can see that could also be a possibility here.

She absolutely definitely knows how to get a rise out of me - and of course it's full-on attention then isn't it?

She has always known how to pull my strings.

my dd could also be hard work.

something to think about, this style of behaviour didn't happen overnight, and it isn't going to end overnight either.

whne she kicks off, walk calmly away, and make a cup of tea. Hard to do, I know.

My DD was very much like this (just 9) and I think that she demanded so much attention after DS was born that we pushed her away too much. I have really focused on giving her lots more hugs and kisses and I think this has helped a lot. Also ignoring the irritating stuff (as much as I can anyway - piercing shrieks can only be ignored up to a point!) unless it is damaging something and zero tolerance on rudeness and cheek, whilst staying very calm and making sure my tone is not nasty at all. We frequently played games with her, and chatted about our day etc, but I think it has been the low level of loving gestures given just for the sake of it which had done the damage and made her feel unloved. Over the last year she has become a different child and appears to have even stopped biting her nails completely unaided - I'm guessing she feels more secure and doesn't feel the need any longer. But, like Martianbishop said, it takes a long time to adjust behaviour like this, and it is very difficult, but it can be done.

Do keep us posted through the week Scatterbrain.
Our dd is big for age too. Something to think about maybe. But not scary.