Campaign of Non-violent non-cooperation started in our house re DS#2 in the style of Mahatma Ghandi

[OrmIrian]

I've posted about my impossible child before. Won't compromise. Won't listen to reason. Give him an inch and he takes the M5. DH and and I are worn out and even his doting grandpa is beginning to look a little tired of him.

So starting on Tuesday DH and I have been starting a new regime. No (more) shouting - it doesn't work. No argument - he does what he is told or he is made to do it. No compromise - he seems to take that as a sign of us giving in. No prevarication - he does it now.

Bloody hell it's hard work. And I feel like such a bully. Hating every minute of it . Please wish us luck. We had to do something for his sake as well as our sanity, and for the sake of his older well-behaved siblings.

well you have to do what feels right for the whole family I suppose. It's difficult. My dd2 age 2 is so easy going (took 3 kids to get an easy one for me, although still time for her to change) she tends to get all the nice comments if we don;t watch it. I sometimes realise ds has been getting nothing besides me nagging him. And his behaviour never seems to improve no matter how many time outs and punishments I give him. It just doesn't work and he gets more and more angry and the whole thing escalates. I am trying to be clear and firm while giving him as much control as I can. We have good and bad times. He is definitely better behaved if I am more relaxed and positive with him, but it is very hard.

It sounds like instinctively you are not happy with the new approach. It's hard when it's the youngest child as they tend to get allowances made anyway. I notice that when dd2 gets told off ds is perfect for a while afterwards!

Cleversprout,

your description of your DS made me laugh, he sounds so lovely. lol at him running screaming out of the house in his undies. Sounds like the kind of thing my DS would do.

I do know what it is like living with a child who is stubborn in the extreme. Very wearying. I can absolutely identify with the shoe scenario too.

DS has taken to saying, "No means no. When children say no then that means no". He looks me straight in the eye and says no with such determination. "I don't want to so I am not going to.."

Gosh that shoe things sounds just like DD except she does that about where to wash her hands (we have two toilets with washbasins, two bathrooms and a kitchen sink!) but she is still 3 so my patience hasn't worn thin. yet.

I actually like it when my children challenge my decisions in a way that would be seen as 'talking back' by many parents.

But 5 minutes before we have to leave for school all you hear me say is things like: 'No talking. Shoes on' DS is 5 and accepts this despite being used to proffering his pov at other times.

I suppose my point is that at 5 he is old enough to understand that negotiating is appropriate at certain times but not at others. You might not feel so much like a bully then.

Yes I think that is a good point otherside - I respond better now to my ds "negotiating" now that he has learnt to phrase it better, .i.e. "mummy can I put the TV louder?" rather than (at 100 decibels) "I CAN'T HEAR IT!!!!!!"

Having said that I do think it's been the firm consistent approach (saying I was going to leave without him etc!) that makes him get dressed in the morning.

Mme Lindt, he IS lovely and funny and curious and yes he is very naughty sometimes. And he can lie through his teeth (another whole thread). I think society often wants passive little obedient kids and doesn;t rate curiosity and determination very highly sometimes.

Ha! Right now I'd settle for passive obedient little kids. Beleive me!

Haf-hearted

We did bedtime without too much grief. I only read 3 books. And he cleaned his teeth willingly. And stayed in bed when I told him too. And he read his school book to me.

I sometimes angst about it being a cry for attention but he gets loads of attention. Can't give him much more. So ignore that thought - that way (more) madness lies.

Its hard isn't it when you are forever angsting about wehther you are traumatising them by being insufficiently empathetic.
This evening ds2 give a stellar performance, distraught becasue I wouldn't come with him to go and get his pyjamas. (he's also started to turn the tables on setting consequences 'if you don't come with me I won't givey ou a kiss and cuddle and bedtime and I'll keep on crying FOREVER'). I just shut the door on him and ignored him (but I was getting little guilty pangs thinking 'what if he's really scared to go on his own? It wouldn't hurt me to go up there with him....') Eventually he went and got them - and miraculously the tears dried up and he was absolutely fine for the rest of the evening
I have learnt to recognise however that he winds himself into a state when he is tired. Haven't worked out how to make him stay in bed until he has had enough sleep yet though

But Orm you don;t have to read 3 books if you don;t want to. One is fine. When you have 3 kids they can have one story each then they get to hear all 3, no? We do that every night and they get the idea after a while that you are not going to change your mind. But then I'm a wicked witch when it comes to not giving in once I've said something. ds and I have a lot of conversations that go something like

ds: "Mummy can I have chocolate?"
me: "No chocolate just now."
ds: "Please! Please please please please!"
me: "ds, when did that EVER work on me?"

He's getting the idea.

Yes it's not getting dragged into it too much that's key isn't it. So hard. I find that actions speak louder than words - so with the shoes, start walking out of the house; with the 3 stories kiss them then leave the room after 1.

I too have said "When did that ever work?" a la sprout. Once the vicar mentioned eating a meal on his knee in front of the telly in his sermon and I heard DS1 mutter "Loki that's ever going to happen "

I know they need to have their thoughts recognised and we need to discuss things with them, but not all the bloody time.

Glad mine are older now...

grammaticus - yes I've learnt that now. The 3 stories is an improvment on the 5 or 6 I was reading a few weeks back That is an example of the 'oh it can't do any harm' attitude that was defeating DH and I. No, it can't do any harm to read him lots of stories, but he would push it so far that I was spending hours with him in the evening. So I have had to resort to being, in my eyes, unreasonable.

This morning he was drawing and it was time to leave. Asked him to put his jumper on but he was too busy. I took the paper and pencil away and told him he could have them back when he had put on his jumper. He wouldn't and got really upset. Sobbed and sobbed . So I got in the car and he followed crying. He finally put the jumper on as we parked and then it was too late to draw anymore. I asked him why he wouldn't put his jumper on, he said it was because he wanted the paper and pencil. He asked why I wouldn't give him the paper and pencil, I said it was because I wanted him to put his jumper on. What a f*ing pallaver...... But I am slowly learning to be stubborn.

Have you read "The incredible years - a parents guide to troubleshooting children aged 3 - 8" by Carolyn Webster-Stratton? It's excellent. Might be worth a look.

Good luck!

So leaving for school is a particular flashpoint? Are you doing all the obvious things (sorry if I'm teaching Grandma to suck eggs here):

• regular countdowns/ time warnings, we're leaving in 5 mins, 2 mins, etc

• dressed and ready before he does whatever it is he wants to do

• getting up early yourself to have time for all the malarkey

• asking him what he still needs to do to be ready (saves on nagging, and it's not like he doesn't know is it, it's the same every morning )

• same routine every morning

• no telly on

• clear and cheerful shout "I'm going!" at the relevant time, combined with setting the alarm maybe (the beeping always makes mine run)

And onwards and upwards, this too shall pass....

Yes indeed. All that. Have been doing it for 8 years now

And although my oldest boy can be a little slow I could usually get him out of the door on time. And he knew I was right and hated being late.

DS#2 simply find a million reasons to delay. That are much much more important than being on time for school. I can't reason with him, which is why I don't anymore.

Bribery?

Bribery only works if the bribee doesn't start to haggle

The main problem I have with ds atm is his level of aggression - it just comes from nowhere.

Is anyone elses dc like this?

This all sounds so familiar. My DS is almost 5 and everything is a battle with him. He's always been a very strong willed child and he's got worse since he started school in September (another thread on here) I've found that turning getting ready for school into a game helps - 'can you get up to the bathroom before I've put these plates in the dishwasher/counted to 10?' sort of thing. It's not too bad on a monday but by thursday/friday I'm absolutely exhausted by the whole thing! Amazingly enough he's a little angel at school. DH & I came out of parents evening wondering if they had the right child!

Ha! Me too dibsie. Although the teacher has mentioned now that he 'knows his own mind'

apostrophe - don't despair. Maybe yours is getting it out of way early/

Oh I just don't have the energy for turning it into a game. Especially in the mornings when it's all I can do to get myself out of the house in a reasonable state let alone 3 little people as well. But then I'm not a morning person and I'm sure the game thing works well if you can be bothered.

I do sometimes do the stupid mummy thing though which often works, e.g.

me: Time to put shoes on ds.
ds: (ignores)
me: (brings shoes and plonks down)
ds: NO!!!! I want to watch this (or whatever)
me: well we'll have to put them on your ears then if you can;t put them on your feet (or something equally daft)

If I keep this up for a few mins I can get the shoes on while he's distracted. Only used this when we're in a big hurry though, as at 5 I think he should put his own shoes on.

Orm you say your ds was sobbing over the paper and pen. Do you think he was upset or just angry? When mine are obviously doing angry screaming I can stand my ground better than when they're actually upset.

Oh dear

I am feeling so guilty.

I have a sick DS#2 atm. Bad cold and cough - not life-threatening but horrible. All weekend he has been so clingy and I, having got so used to him being totally unreasonable have been saying no and being strict. Yesterday he had a party to go to. Unusually for him he asked me to stay at the party and, unusually for me , I agreed. He spent most of the party snuggled up with me and was so happy. And of course looking back I have realised just how much I have been pushing him away, for ages probably, because he has been so hard to be with. But of course it's a vicious circle.

Am now trying to spend time with him. Maybe that's all he needs.

Ah shit. This little lad seems to have has been sent to earth to make me feel guilty. I keep screwing up.

You are not screwing up! Try not to worry so much. You stayed at the party and snuggled up to him so you WERE responding to his needs, weren't you? And you are thinking about trying to get a better balance of more attention + ds co-operating, aren't you?

Your description of putting the shoes on made me giggle as it sounds just like ds. Who is not particularly naughty but does try every trick in the book to do things in his own good time. Think I often go too far in negotiating with him but am cracking down on bedtime atm and it's going well so far, touch wood.

My DD went to school with teeth unbrushed, hair unbrushed, tie tied to school bag and coat thrown at her as she got out of the car. I have to pick my battles. We started tough love a couple of months ago and it is starting to work. Before school is a big flash point for us, so I am leaving that til last .... however clothes in bedroom now get picked up and she is no longer losing every privalege every day ... I think the message is starting to sink in.

Orm, I know with my Ds2 guilt is part of the whole cycle, and part of the reason why I am not totally consistant with him and therefore why he then pushes more to get a consistant response.

I don't think you are screwing up and think you are right in your thinking that he needs consequences. The fact that you are considering what his needs are and responding to them, even though this takes you outside of your 'comfy parenting zone' is admirable.

Thanks.

bumbleybee - 'admirable' Wow... I normally settle for OK

A balance is it exactly. Hard to find though. We'll see.