Don't know how to help ds (3.3). At the end of my tether and nursery not much help.

[PanicPants]

Will try to keep this short, ds has been going to nursery (foundation stage 1) since September. I thought he had settled in well, despite me having so many misgivings about him starting so early. He is the youngest in the class as he was a very late August birthday. He has some behaviour issues when playing with other children, and can be very boisterous in certain situations - nursery being one of them.

He also is immersed in his own role plays for much of the time, as well as having obsessions (firemen, spiders etc).

Anyway, we went to parents eve back in October, the teacher said she was only just (that week) starting to see him beginning to quieten down, and then went on to talk about his positives), but on wednesday this week, my cm who picks him up Said he was sitting in time out. So yesterday I asked to speak to the teacher who said 'he is having a bad time'

We spoke for about 10 mins, and tbh I got so upset (in tears) I asked her what we could do to help him, and she said be positive etc etc when he is good, but he IS good most of the time we are home, it is only with other children, or if I have visitors that he starts to show off and be really silly.

The other problem I have with ds, is the mornings, he refuses to clean his teeth, this then ALWAYS leads to temper tantrums, which leaves me dreading and hating mornings. Dh leaves for work at 6am, so no help from him.

I am feeling really low, and this probably makes no sense, or really conveys how I'm feeling, but I just feel like such a failure I just don't know what to do. I'm dreading picking ds up today, as I feel all the staff are fed up with him.

please don't beat yourself up about this. your child is at two disadvantages first he is much younger (the youngest child in my ds' pre-school room was 3 in May and has only just gone up from the younger class) and has not been at nursery before where they learn when it is socially acceptable to be boisterous and how to play together. When i go and pick up my son i am just amazed at how good and quiet these children are and how well they concentrate. In the summer these same children would have been running around like zebedee on speed.

It will probably improve with time but my advice is perhaps to reduce his hours at nursery but try and get his cm to do more structured play with other children and have more play dates at w/e. This will enable you to see what the trigger points are

teethbrushing, give him the toothbrush while he is playing and let him do it himself slowly (you can give them a proper brush in the evening). So every 5 mins or so say "have you done the back yet or are you still finishing the sides". This means there is no conflict betwee play and toothbrushing and he has control

best and please remember he is a perfectly normal boy

He sounds pretty normal to me too. Children don't start to do cooperative playing until around the age of 3 so your DS is still learning how that works. It is only natural that some children may find this more difficult than others.

I think it is probably not so bad from the nursery's point of view either. They are usually pretty quick to mention it to the parents if things have got out of hand and you had to speak to them, they didn't ask to speak to you.

As for the teethbrushing, if the evenings aren't an issue I would do a proper job in the evenings and then let him play with the brush in the mornings as witchandchips suggests. Do you have to drag him away from something he likes doing to get him to brush his teeth? If so maybe a change of order in the way you get ready would help so that isn't the case e.g. don't let him go and play or watch TV until it is done and then he can play uninterupted.

Thanks for replying witch and chips (great name!)

I know what you say makes sense, but it just keeps getting worse not better. I'm a teacher myself so feel I should not be having these problems with my own child!!! I just don't want ds to become THAT dreaded child in the class, the one that all teachers pray isn't in there class! As well as the child all the other mums keep their own children away from. I can see now, that some of the children in his class are beginning to shy away from him, and don't want to play with him.

It just breaks my heart.

As for the teethbrushing, I will try that. You'd think that there would be some other product or someother way of cleaning his teeth, something he could chew on!! Might have to invent one myself and make a fortune!!

Sunnytimer - thats it!! Thats EXACTLY the situation. You have my son!!!

I did ask about the senco and referral, but the teacher said for the time being they would keep it to informal observations. I teach at a different school, and the systems are slightly diffeent. In our Nursery, the children are put on a concern list before school action/plus, and then it moves to referral, but at ds school I think they take it a bit slower.

FWIW Panic, he sounds normal to me, in fact you could be writing about my nephew about a year ago. He just seemed to grow out of it - he also made a good friend who is a lot calmer than him and seemed to be a good influence.

On the teeth cleaning thing, my DD was dreadful just a couple of months ago and still has her moments now. Honestly her teeth used to be brown some days because I just couldn't get at them! What worked for us was a combination of electric toothbrush and sticker chart.

Have you mentioned these things to your HV?

TBH haven't seen HV since he was about a year old.

Might be worth giving her ring, HV's can be more helpful than nursery or GP.

The reason i say this, is my 4 year old son isnt 'fitting in' at nursery, a lot of the time 'doing his own thing, imaginary friends etc and he has underlying problems

Really? What sort (if you don't mind me asking)?

Just worried that once I get HV or other involved, it will be a stigma iyswim.

And did you involve HV, through the nursery or yourself?

Sorry for all the questions. Have to pick up ds in a bit, but will be back to reply.

Some problems were picked up by HV at his 2 1/2 year check, its a long story and i too have to pick up ds from nursery in a minute, but would be happy to discuss it later with you.

Your ds should be due for a 3 1/2 year check from the HV and pre school boosters etc, perhaps you could mention it then

Chat soon

I honestly think the nursery are expecting far too much. My DCs go to work place nursery (ie not pre school nursery). It is much more relaxed, they don't have to sit down and do an activity if they don't want too etc (ds rarely did).

Role play is a huge thing for 3 yos (ds was 'fireman sam' all the time at this age, then became spiderman lol).

And if you can't be silly when you are 3 when can you?

Think about the problems august birthday children have settling in reception, it is much much harder a year early as the age difference matters more. I am really surprised they put him in foundation year 1 class, our nusery keeps them in the main pre-school room (loads of free play etc) till either the term they turn 4 or the staff think that they are ready (being able to play calmly alongside other children being a key criterion)

Panic, keep posting, it's going to be ok!

It's hard when the kids aren't perfect or seem different. And it must be harder still when you're a teacher yourself - perhaps you feel as though a teacher's child "ought" to behave. And you sound a bit scared that there might be "something wrong". There probably isn't and - you know what? - even if there is, you're both going to be just fine.

The teachers sound lovely. Though I can understand that them being nice to you made you cry....

What is the age range of the children he is among? Why don't you go visit a few private nurseries and observe the behaviour of the 2/3 age group boys. I think you'd feel a bit better if he wasn't surrounded by sociable mature 4 year olds!

My DS2 is 21st August, 3.2 the youngest in school nursery and a very late talker to boot so I feel your pain. I'm lucky: Bradford LEA will let me defer and start him in reception in 2010 at 5 years 0 months.

lingle - I'm really interested in how you managed to get your LEA to defer entry into reception for your ds. I was told that I didn't have to send ds to nursery, but he would have to start reception in 2009 anyway, which doesn't sort out the problem, it will just set it back a year, so ds will still be the youngest, but will also have the disadvantage of not having had a year of nusery under his belt. He was born on 27th Aug.

I'm going to make an unhelpful post, really just boasting about the Scottish system

Here, the cut off for entry to the following school year is the end of febuary, so no child starts school at under 4.5. All children with Jan and Feb birthdays have the option of having an extra year at nursery, and those with Nov and Dec birthdays can have an extra year at the discretion of the nursery teachers. My DS will be 4 in Jan and we have decided to give him an extra year at nursery to work on social skills! When they do go to school they go in at P1, there is no reception.

So, you could move to Scotland.

Hi Panic, sorry had to rush off, nursery pick up then Asda's!

My son has yet to be diagnosed with anything, although we have had suspected austism, which has been ruled out. He is currently seeing an OCT and she suspects he may have heightened senses (SPD) and he may be 'gifted' hence the problems he has.

Socially he wants to take the lead, also has a vivid imagination and imaginary friends. Other kids tend to shy away from anything 'different' and my son is always saying no one likes me etc.

Could be perfectly normal for a child of your ds's age to be experiencing the problems he is. But if you are worried, just phone your HV, make an appointment to see her and explain your concerns. If she is concerned she will refer you.

I have 2 full on boys and look dont beat yourself up. I have been there, Dont be pushed into judging your child against others at such a young age - or any age, they have many years ahead to mature. How they are at pre school bears nothing in how life is when they are at school etc, learning new behaviour and skills everyday. I always think there is soo much pressure on us mums to get our small children to behave like mini adults.

Panic - ah, school entry age - my favourite subject...(obsessive, moi?)

How old is your child first of all (3.2?) and what's your LEA?

Just realised you're probably not online and I probably won't check in again till Sunday so will tell you all that I know.

1. England statutory full-time education starting age is the start of the term after their fifth birthday. So for my DS2 (3.2) it's September 2010. The Human Rights Act entitles every child to an education. So you'd think you'd be entitled to start that education at 5.0 in the class where they learn to read write and do sums wouldn't you?

1. All English Councils that I have heard of via mumsnet EXCEPT Leeds and Bradford operate what I call the "illegal punishment policy" (I call it illegal because I think it conflicts with the two pieces of legislation I mention above). Under the illegal punishment policy, if you exercise that statutory right to start your child's education at the statutory starting age of 5.0, your child is "punished" by being placed straight into Year 1. Where the others have already learnt to read, write and do sums.

1. Scottish system is much better. Irish system is much better. Czech system is much better. Scandinavian system is much better. German system is much better. Dutch system is much better. New Zealand system is much better. Danish system is much better....even in the USA my DS1 would have started at 5.9. Need I go on.....? England stands out like a sore dysfunctional thumb.

1. There is now clear statistical evidence accepted by the Government that a significant proportion of summer-borns [NOT ALL OR EVEN MOST SO PLEASE DON'T POST IF YOURS IS THRIVING - I'M HAPPY FOR YOU] particularly late-maturing boys never catch up. I have also read that there is evidence that a disproportionate number of diagnoses of things like ADHD are of summer-borns. Anecdotally, I've met special school teacher who report way more than a sixth of pupils have July/August birthdays.

1. The Government accepts there is a problem and has briefed Sir Jim Rose to submit an interim review of the primary school system which is due any day now. The brief includes a specific instruction to advise on how to increase flexiblity for school entry time for summer-borns (note "how" not "whether")

1. My LEA (Bradford) has teased me at various times over the past two years by considering moving to the "illegal punishment policy". But now I have confirmation in writing that they will honour their existing policy. I have written to them offering to participate in any positive PR they want to do about the policy.

Let me know if you want to see the brief to Jim Rose. You see, even if your LEA won't play ball now (and from mumsnet testimonies they don't) there's a chance that by 2010 you might be able to enter reception everywhere at 5.0

lingle - you certainly know your stuff, woman!! respect!!
i am with you 100%. my DS is a summer baby, in a mixed year 1/reception class, and so are lots of the boys in his class - cue a load of disruptive behaviour for the last 18 mths which their nice-but-rather-ineffectual teacher has been trying to deal with but really struggles with. one of his mates is labelled as 'difficult' purely bcs - IMHO - he, more than any of the others, just should not be there - simple as that! had he waited another year i bet a lot of his problems would have disappeared or at least been modified by the simple passing of time. we came back to the uk from NZ (1yr) and Oz (1 yr) and both their systems are so much better. i back your campaign lingle. don't despair panic, i know a few little boys like your DS and most of them are improving no end with age.
PS my DH leaves at an ungodly hour in the morning too and i used to cry myself to sleep at night sometimes, dreading the next morning when things were at their worst a while back!! pathetic i know but that is what this parenting lark reduces you (well me anyway) to sometimes when things seem impossible now and again. loads loads better now and i hope the same goes for you with time. good luck!! we are here for you x

A tip I got from MN is to pretend that there is something in my kids mouthes and I need to chase it away e.g. "I can see an elephant in your mouth. Quick, he's running round the back. There's a monkey up top, let me chase him away etc." My dd used to point blank refuse to brush her teeth before I introduced this game, but it made teeth brushing bearable for a good 6 months. And by then she was much more reasonable and would brush her teeth without a battle.

Lingle - you DO know your stuff! I haven't actually challenged our LEA, but may seriously look into it if, of course, it's not too late for ds. Wil probably be back on here looking for info from you though!

Katiek123 - can sooooo sympathise with the crying yourself to sleep, when you have get up and do the teeth, wash, dress and then get a reluctant ds to school by 9am, have done this a few times since september. It sounds so pathetic written down, and dh just thinks I'm exaggerating how horrific mornings are.

Also it's hard to talk to anyone else, especially those that have more than 1, they look at you as if to say 'well, try having 2'.

neolara - what a good idea, definitly going to try that tomorrow morning!