6yr old in yr 2 struggling to write - any ideas of how to help? (sorry, long)

[Takver]

DD likes school and generally enjoys the school work, but she seems to have a total block on writing words. Have just had a parent/teacher meeting, and basically her teacher is saying that she is baffled. For reference DD reads fluently and enjoys reading to herself, she also has good fine motor skills. She can write figures fine (she really likes maths).
When she writes copying from text, her writing is neat, but she seems to have a 'block' in that she writes one word, then sort of sticks. Apparantly she spent an hour and a half copying out 4 sentences yesterday at school, which must be incredibly frustrating for her and all concerned. Trying to write independently, she can 'sound out' how a word is spelt pretty reliably (she's in Welsh medium schooling, so at least it is all phonetic), but then she can't reproduce it on paper.
The main reason we want to help is that she's upset that she can't write, and is very aware that the others in her group at school are all able to write independently. Her teacher says that she's in the top group, because her reading, maths, comprehension and language mean she ought to be there - but I am wondering if I ought to push for her to be moved to a lower group where others wouldn't be writing either. Or any other suggestions as to how we could help her? Her teacher has tried getting her 'writing' on the computer in case that helped, but no difference . . .

It sounds like she might have a bit of a mental block about writing and the more she worries, the bigger the gap between her reading and writing could get and the 'worse' her writing could get. You don't want her to get into a vicious cycle.

That said, she needs lots of encouragement - sitting for an hour and a half writing four sentences is a little worrying. I taught Year 2 for many years and at no point would I have got a child to sit and write for that long. Talk to the teacher about ways in which she can be encouraged - rewards like stickers for when she does do some writing.

Is she better when writing things like labels and lists? It might be that she's daunted by long pieces of writing. Or is she a perfectionist? Trying to make her handwriting perfect? If she is obsessed with using a rubber frequently this might be the case.

Really you want her to realise that writing can be fun and useful. You could try things like getting her to write with her finger in a tray of sand, or with paint. Have you got an Aquadraw or Magnadoodle? She could practise writing on those. Give her some chalk and take her outside.

Also, let her watch you write. Show her that writing doesn't always have to be perfect - eg when writing lists or quick notes.

Try and think of short pieces she could write. A quick thank you note to a friend. You could write together - taking turns to write a word each - perfect for writing a shopping list.

Just do a little bit now and then. You don't want her to get even more worried herself.

Personally, I wouldn't move the group she's in at school. It may make her feel worse and she could also get bored if she is as capable as the other children in her current group.

Chances are, she will suddenly 'get' it. I know it seems like a big deal at the moment but it sounds like she's doing brilliantly. All the pieces are there - she just needs to put them together. I am quite sure that in a year you will look back on this time with surprise.

This is really interesting, I have no real suggestions other than stuff I think you've probably tried...

E.g. doing it like a joke - writing silly words down type thing - my nephew learnt to write by doing words such as bum, wee wee, fart, mucky, etc. Whatever appeals to your childs sense of humour (he found them hilarious, I don't think his teacher did, lol).

Perhaps if you made it like this evening's task to write one really stupidly long word (supercalifragilistic etc etc) or that really long train station in Wales (Llanfair etc etc) it would get her doing a whole load of letters in one go without hitting the mental block of starting a new word? You could even do the letters in different colours and decorate them afterwards?

Wrt the lower group, is there no way she can just sit with other children for writing and rejoin her normal group for the rest? Or would that make too much of a deal of it?

Sorry I can't be more helpful, will watch with interest though...

I think my concern would be the lack of progress since she first started to write 2? years ago.

Did the class teacher suggest involving the SENCO or an outside agency for an assessment.

I'm afraid that I disagree with nondomestic goddess on one point (only!). I don't think that keeping her in the top group for writing is particularly helpful at the moment as it will keep bringing home to her the gap between herself and her peers. (Sorry, that was a really badly worded sentence - I just got stuck!)

It sounds to me like she needs to see some success in her writing and she would therefore be better off being given work that is less challenging and more achievable for a while.

Yes I agree, you need to take a softly softly approach, to try and break the circle of worrying about it. Try to get her to help you at home - say, for example, you write stuff on a shopping list every now and then, so get her to add a word to the list, and then two words, etc. My DD loves writing and loves making menu's for our tea - colours it in and then adds words, etc.

It is something you need to sort out as soon as possible, as it could get worse as she gets older. Can you get other family members to show her their writing, so she cans ee how everyone is different, and makes mistakes, and crosses out, etc.

Can the teacher not come up with anything - they are the trained professionals?? Hopefully someone wil come along and have better advice from their own personal experience.

To be honest, I disagree with the whole "if you're in the top group for literacy, you're in the top group for everything" style of teaching. I have different groups for each subject to ensure that children are working with children of a similar ability at times for each subject.

I've got many chidlren in my class who excel in one area but not others. It would be nonsense to put them in the top group for everything.

Agree completely with littlefish - my dd's numeracy has suffered so much because she has always been ridiculously good at literacy and it was assumed she was the same with maths - she wasn't, and she's missed a whole load of basic stuff. Only now in yr4 she's been put in a different 'stream' for maths.

I see what you're saying re the groups being the same for everything, but I think that they keep them that way because they're not labelled 'top group' etc and I don't think that the children know that they're ability groups.
Re. the teacher coming up with something - basically she said to me yesterday that she was baffled, had discussed it with the h/teacher, and that she hadn't had any great ideas.
I think last year (in fact she said as much) she thought that DD was refusing to write rather than unable to do so.
Will try lists - we've tried short notes etc. So far our only success has been making words with scrabble letters, which avoids the physical writing bit of it.
I'm glad someone else agrees that an hour and a half on one bit of work is mad!

The thing is Takver, that the children do know that they are ability grouped for some things, even at this age, even if they're not told. I don't call mine the "top group" either. I just have groups called different minibeasts at the moment, and I differentiate the work according to the group. However, I also look at individual children who I think could move across groups for the lesson and they join a different group. There is nothing hard and fast about grouping in my class. It's the individual, how they're feeling, and what the piece of work is that dictates which group they ultimately work with.

I work very hard to help children recognise that they each have a talent. I do lots of "If you've got a word you can't spell, ask x because he's really good at spelling". However, if you want a great game of chase at lunchtime, then y's your girl because she's really fast". Every child has something they can be good at and something they find harder, and it's down to the skill of the teacher to make sure that children feel comfortable with that idea.

I wish that were the case with DD's class too
DD is so aware that she can't write.
I keep pointing out to her that everyone learns to write well enough in the end, and that spelling/neatness are really not that important (luckily we have a severely dyslexic friend who spells worse than anyone I know and just got a phd - definitely an encouraging example there), but of course so much of what they are asked to do at school involves writing, and I suspect this will only get worse next year . . .
Its interesting about the groupings - DD definitely doesn't see herself as being in the top group - she has told me that the groups are organised so that there are some sensible children in each group to keep the others in order!

Also thankyou everyone for your suggestions - I like the idea of getting DD to write on shopping lists and also making menus - she used to write her own 'pretend' shopping lists when she was little, so I think it could be a good start.
She did write out a joke for her Nan last weekend, we will try some silly stuff too.
And I will try talking to her teacher again and see if she can avoid her spending hours just copying a few words.

Yes spending hours on it is far too much pressure poor kid

I had another idea for your lo, takver. She could create a book all about herself. If you buy a little notebook she could write just a page a day, with one sentence on each page and if she likes drawing then she could add illustrations. She could start on the first page with just writing her name. The next page could be a very simple 'I am 6.' Then maybe her favourite colour - 'I like red'. Each day/page build up the sentences bit by bit until she is writing things like 'I like to eat macaroni and cheese with peas and carrots.' Children usually love to write about themselves at that age and it would give her something to be really proud of. Just take it really slowly so she doesn't get daunted by it.

In Year 1 there is some writing but there still shouldn't be a huge emphasis on it. It shouldn't take over all the other subjects. I used to make different worksheets for children who found writing hard and we used to do a lot of cutting and sticking. We did very little writing outside of Literacy itself and that was in Year 2.

I am quite cross (and clearly now a sahm getting far too involved ) that your dd's teacher and head are being so unsupportive. It sounds like the problem isn't that she can't write but that she won't. Possibly she is being stubborn but there is likely to be a very good reason for it and as I said before, she needs lots of encouragement. She will get over this hiccup.

Please let us know how she gets on.

That's a really good idea. And I agree that if they are 'baffled' by her they should be looking at extra support not just saying 'sorry don't know'. Good luck with it anyway let us know how she gets on...

Sorry - misread the initial post. I've been thinking your dd was in Year 1. I think everything I've said still fits though!

I like the idea of a book about herself. DH has made her a 'book of days' which she can stick things into or draw pictures in when we do something special and then put a caption, and that is quite a success (made it really as a keepsake for her when bigger, but it also encourages a bit of writing!). She loves making things, so we could make the book together as well.
To be fair, I think that her teacher is being more supportive now. She said herself that last year because she had a very big class (32) and they also had an ESTYN inspection she was very stressed and basically just thought DD was being un-co-operative. (DD does tend to flatly refuse to do things that she thinks she will get wrong, so it wasn't totally ureasonable of her to think this - in nursery/ reception she wouldn't speak Welsh at all for months, despite patently understanding what was said.)
She's also said now that she wants me to come back and discuss progress in a month, which is helpful, I guess then if things haven't improved maybe they will think about different actions.

That sounds promising, and the book of days is great, just labelling the odd thing might get her moving a bit.

Even if she was just being un-cooperative originally (I did giggle at the bit about the Welsh) I think its more than that now and it definitely needs to be worked through very sensitively, especially if she is worried about getting things wrong, because its all about confidence isn't it and that's so fragile.

Just to let you all know that we have been experimenting a bit, and trying out various things, with quite a bit of success.
So, DD happily added lots of things to my shopping list. She asked if she could buy sweets, so I suggested she wrote it on the list, then she got really keen and wanted to write lots more stuff on it!!! (my stuff, not more things for her).
I also remembered an old game that someone passed on to us ages ago when DD was much too young for it, with letters that fit together, and we had a nice time with it making words this morning, with DD doing the spelling pretty much all herself.
AND . . . I had some handmedowns to send to a friend, and DD totally voluntarily wrote a letter to her little boy, spelling all the words herself (by writing them out on a chalk board first, which seemed to make her much happier about it).
Will it last . . . who knows . . . but it is very cheering. The only downside I can see is that it is going to be hard to do 'fun stuff' writing in Welsh, as we don't speak it at home, so it is much harder to make it into a game. But hell, at least DD is writing something, even if not in the 'right' language. (BTW, we didn't specifically choose Welsh medium education, but there isn't really any other option here without driving DD miles every day.)

That sounds great Takver.

When teaching bi-lingual children, I have always been told that it's really important that they are comfortable communicating in their home language first. Hopefully, once your dd is really confident writing in English, then writing in Welsh won't seem like such a huge task.

Its difficult, isn't it. At school they don't do any work at all in English until age 7, and although its not explicit there is a certain amount of discouragement to doing 'school stuff' in English at home. The reason for that being, I'm pretty certain, that it will tend to confuse them, and also they really want to get them speaking Welsh fluently early on (at least 80% of the children in DD's class are from non-Welsh speaking homes, and probably 90% plus from homes where the working language is English).
But for dd (and I think most of the children) Welsh equates to school & work, and English to home & play, so its easier to make writing fun in English IYSWIM.