HELP!....I'm at a loss as to know what to do with my almost 5yr old DD

[whispywhisp]

I just don't know what to do. DH and I look at each other when DD2 has her tantrums, which only really started when she started primary school just a few weeks ago....

She can be such a lovely caring loving little girl and absolutely idolises her big sister who is almost 10yrs old.

BUT!...just lately - since she started Reception Year (she goes full-time tomorrow) every time either I or DH ask her to do something we are met with a very strong answer of 'NO!'....this can be for her to get dressed, do her teeth, get in the bath, get out the bath, do a wee before bedtime and go to bed.

She not only says 'No' every time we ask her to do any of the above but she'll scream, kick me, kick DH, throw herself around the floor like some demented possessed child and I simply don't know how to deal with this.

I have tried doing a reward sticker chart - she didn't want to know. I have told her that if she doesn't do as she's told she won't see Santa. She just laughs and smiles at me. I can't reason with her when she's having 'one of her moments' because she can't hear me for all her screaming.

The other night she'd had her tea and went off into the lounge. DH asked her if she wanted a pudding (yoghurt etc) to which she replied 'yes please'. He put it on the kitchen table whilst he did the washing up and she refused to come and sit at the table. She spent the entire time it took for him to wash up and dry up screaming on the lounge floor crying out 'I want Daddy'....DH ignored her but did tell her her pudding was on the kitchen table and if she wanted it she was to come and sit at the taable...and she still refused to come into the kitchen. The pudding was put away in the fridge and she was put to bed. Was that the right thing to do?

Whilst ignoring her is the best advice...I can't ignore her when I have to get them to school in the morning and she refuses to get dressed, put shoes on etc....

What do I do? I ask her if she says no to her teacher and of course she doesn't. I ask her if she kicks her teacher and of course she doesn't. I ask her why she does it to me and her reply is 'because you are my Mum'...this just breaks my heart so much and just makes me feel like a complete failure, tbh.

...'march her out the door as she is (in PJs if necessary) and without breakfast, shoes, hair done. Let her be mortified by going to school like that.'...

Not sure that's such a great idea!! It sounds really harsh and probably would just go over her head.

Whispy that sounds like you did the perfect thing

You know that feeling when you've been out all day with people and you've had a brilliant time, but afterwards you just need to wind down and process everything you've done and said and everyone else has said to you, in your mind - well i think it's a bit like that. They just have a head that's banging full of information and it drives them into physical wildness as it's so uncomfortable.

I think they are too little for full days at this age really but with your loving approach you can certainly help her to adjust.

whisy, just caught this and can say that we had similar problems with our DS when he forst started school. ne thing we found worked really well was a little sand egg timer and he used to race against it; we made the getting dressed into a game and he responded so much better to it.

Also, the book "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" has some good ideas in it for talking to them on their level and getting them to co-operate. Saying things like "are you meant to be jumping on the sofa?" rather than "get off the sofa"; puting a name to their feelings, ie asking them if they are tired rather than saying "you are tired, go to bed", letting them express themselves by saying things like "i know you're angry/upset" etc and then letting them open up to you a bit more. I was quite sceptical about it but it has helped here; if only letting me get things into perspective a bit more!

We've also found that picking our battles helps too and try not to sweat the little stuff. And absolutely refusing to get into an argument with him too. When he kicks off we just walk away and ask him to come and find us when he is calm. this usually helps him get his won feelings into perspective.

and, the first term is always bad I think, rgardless of what year they are in. the fact that this behaviour has started since she started school probably means that she is having difficulty adjusting.

Snackwise after school, I would go for a banana/cheese sarnie/crackers etc rather than sweets....based on my own personal hell experience with DS!

sorry for all the typos...bad night of insomnia!

Hi I hope things are improving for you! All I can say is just remain consistant with your disciplining, if it is getting to the point where her tantrums are stressing you out too much, send her to her room to calm down, explain to her that her behaviour is not acceptable. I know the experts rcommend that you don't send children to theri rooms because they will associate their bedrooms with being discipilned, I'm sorry that is absolute rubbish, our daughter knows the difference between being sent to her room adn when it is time to go to bed or play in her room. You siad you have been working on a reward chart. When does she get the reward?and what are her targets? Because initially the target needs to be quite simple, like brushing her teeth without making a fuss adn then she gets her reward immediatly, if she has to wait too long for the reward then she will easily forget and feel uninspired. Also what reinforcers are you using?If the sticker chart isn't working then maybe you need to think of another reinforcer/reward. We have had problems getting our DD to stay in her bed and go to sleep at night and because she loves stories, we have now said she will get a maximum of 3 stories if she does stay in her a bed and so far it seems to be working! Sorry I don't mean to sound like I know all the answers but I have worked as a Behaviour therapist in the past and have put my knowledge and experience to good use with our own DD. I do wish you the best of luck and if you have any questions please ask. You're not a failure as a Mother it is just a stage that she is going through!

Hi all...and thanks for your replies.

TBH I don't think I could face sending DD2 to school in her pj's either. Knowing her and her stubborness she'd probably be quite happy to go to school in her pj's and I'd be the one that'd be hugely embarrassed!

As regards discipline...if I send her to her room, which I have done, she thinks its time to play. She's surrounded by her toys and won't see it has being somewhere where she goes when she's naughty.

The sticker chart is working, so far. She gets a lovely 'posh' sticker when she gets a row of smileys...to get her smileys she has to....get up and get dressed, do her teeth (mornings), have a bath, do her teeth (eves), go to bed. Not too much to ask surely?

Daisy...that's an interesting comment you've made about the sofa question. Yes she jumps on the sofa...and yes I immediately tell her not to. I might just try turning that around and question her whether or not she thinks she should be doing that? It's a bit like playing games with her but it may come across slightly better from me rather than me constantly telling what she can't do.

She is a good girl though...she will ask before she helps herself to something from the fruit bowl (for example) and always says please and thank you. She always says 'excuse me' if she wants to say something and I'm already talking.

When I weigh up her good points versus her bad the good certainly out-weighs the bad its just that I've seen a side of her just lately that isn't her. She is definitely coming across as a child that needs 12+hours sleep so bedtime is being brought forward to 6.30pm...which won't be easy with an elder DD but I tend to let her read DD2 a story (which DD1 loves doing) and then she can go back downstairs for another hour or so whilst DD2 nods off.

Anyway this morning went better. I got up at 6am, got all the jobs done before the kids got up at 7am. They were dressed before they came downstairs, had their breakfast, done their teeth and they're now ready to go. Just hope it lasts!

You have my sympathy, my DD1 is a bit like this but expresses it in a different way. I'm pretty sure it is connected to school stresses as she doesn't do it so much at the weekend and she is particularly difficult just after school.

I nearly posted on MN about it actually.

DD1 was very good as a small toddler and therefore we have never really had to set up a discipline system. Now at nearly 5 I think it is too late for her to suddenly get put on a 'naughty step' or summat (drives her WILD anyway).

I don't have any magic solutions, and every child is different, but here are some of the things that worked for us.

BTW my DD doesn't tantrum as such but she does the opposite of what I ask her, is unkind to her little sister and has some backchat that would impress a teenager.

-This one takes time so no good for mornings, if she doesn't do what she is told or stop doing something naughty, after fair warning, I take a favourite toy/item away. I put it up high where she can't get it. She gets it back just before bedtime if she has behaved OK for the rest of the day. This drives her CRAZY but once she has calmed down it works. Now I have done it a couple of times, normally just the threat is enough to get her to listen to me.

-Trying to give her choices. She is funny about getting dressed so I let her choose where she wants to get dressed, what she wants to wear (within reason i.e. this dress or those trousers).

-We do a lot of racing to see who can do things first.

-I try to help her express her anger in other ways by encouraging her to vocalise things. I say stuff like 'Are you cross because you don't want to brush your teeth at the moment?' or 'Are you annoyed because you wanted to keep playing?'.
Sometimes this helps her to see that she doesn't need to shout/hit to get her feelings across. Sometimes this falls on deaf ears though.

-When she is calm I try to get her to talk and tell me why she gets so cross/backchats/annoys her sister. Sometimes I suggest reasons for why this might be and we try to agree on how we are going to behave the next time if happens. Mummy won't shout and DD will not hit.

-We did a poster with some house rules on it together. We did good things like helping each other, speaking nicely, etc and the bad things like hitting, speaking rudely, not getting dressed in the morning without a fuss.
Sounds silly but this did help and we had good fun making it together. Also it gave us a chance to talk about things.

-All the usual things like positive reinforcement which you are no doubt doing anyway. This morning we had a good morning with no fuss so I told her how well she had done and we both agreed that it was much nicer when things were like that.

I don't have any tips for dealing with the actual tantrums. My experience is that they have to blow themselves out and any intervention on my part just prolongs things.

Good luck. I know how wearing it is but I'm praying it is 'just a phase'.

Thank you beachcomber...what a very useful and helpful post. Reading thru it I started nodding in agreement. You spoke a lot of sense!

In the past, when she's had her tantrums, I would try to ignore them but they would usually get worse. If I respond by trying to shout back/raise my voice it is only because she can't hear me thru her screaming...I end up getting frustrated and she gets worse. I'm finding the 'softly softly' approach is best...calmly asking her for a cuddle and she immediately says she's sorry.

I'm really hoping she'll be ok this evening. It's her first full day at school today so I'm guessing she'll be tired tonight. I will endeavour to get tea on the table as soon as we get home (cook it this aftn) and early bath...atleast then if she wants to go to bed early she can but if not she'll be in bed by half six anyway.

I also have to remember that when I had DD1 our days were not governed by an elder child needing to go to school and needing to be picked up. DD2 has had the last five years being traipsed up to school and back again - DD1 could have a lie-in when she wanted (providing there was no playgroup or school)...DD2 has never been able to do that because of DD1. I have to remember these things when DD2 does get tired.

Anyway wish me luck for later!

You're welcome. Good luck!

If I think of anything else I'll post it.

Have you read the book "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk"? Some fab advice in there that sounds very relevant to the issues you and your DD have.
I hope things improve for you all.

Thanks beautifulgirls...I've just managed to buy a cheap second hand copy on eBay....hopefully it'll give me some more ideas! x

Whispywisp after reading about you giving her a cuddle when she was having a tantrum and her hugging you back, I am resolving to not get annoyed at ds and try that approach. Easy to say when he is asleep and looks angelic

Well we've had a much better few days...three good days in fact (I know this due to the smiley face chart!)...she's been brilliant. Mind you she was off school yesterday with a stomach bug (as was DD1) but so far, so good.

I think a lot of her tantrums stem from tiredness. I'm sticking to the 6.30pm bedtime rule, lights out by 7pm. DD1 is allowed to stay up until 8pm with lights out by 8.30pm - she's almost 10.

Whenever DD2 goes to bed she is normally asleep within minutes so its not as if we're having a problem her going to sleep (atm!) so she clearly needs her 12hrs.

We've not had any tantrums since the weekend. A lot also depends on how I'm feeling at the time too. If I'm tired or stressed out I find I'm snappy with her so I have to remember to remain chilled out and if I am I deal with her better....

...wait and see!