My manipulative, aggressive 6 y o dd - how can I help her?

[Clockface]

This may be long.

My 6 y o dd has always had a very headstrong streak in her, and it has got more so as she has got older. Here is one tiny but sadly everyday example:

I picked her up from Beavers at 7 tonight. Her friends were walking home in one direction and we were going in the other. She knows this; she knows where we live relative to the scout hut. We said goodbye to her friends and left, but she was cross that we couldn't walk home with her friends and started hitting me. I said "That hurts, stop it please" and she replied "That's the point, you deserve it".

This was just one of so many little incidents when she has lashed out and hit either me or ds. When we got home, dh asked me if I were okay (I wasn't; I had gone quiet as I had just had enough of dd) and then asked dd if she had done anything naughty. She told dh that she'd been playing with me and had patted my hand as part of the game and that I had told her off because of it. He said "Oh well, you mustn't hit muumy even in playing" and she went off to bed.

I feel that she behaved appallingly towards me and manipluatively towards dh. If this were an isolatd example I could let it go, but these things are happenig most days. I am geeting headaches and so stressed about her behaviour but don't know how to takle it. I tend to tackle it head-on which makes her resent me more and turns me into the enemy.

She is really harsh towards other children as well and has "fallen out" with most of the children in her class, and treats ds (4 y o) dreadfully sometimes and deliberately upsets him then shows no remorse at all.

I am thinking atht I need help with this, and am thinkking about contacting the school nurse next week. Do you think that is the right person? Do you think a counsellor would help? Anyone else "been there" with their dc?

Yes I watched 'Supernanny' last night and it felt like the Ghost of Dd future if we don't sort her out now.

Do any of you do after school activities? How does that work? Dd is starting swimming lessons next week, and does Beaves already. I have always instinctively tried not to overload her with too many after school activities but she is v. keen to learn to swim, and of course it's v. good for her.

I am a tad worried about the emotional fallout of this though...

Goodness, my DD (5) is just the same as the children described here. Funny I should see this thread as tonight she had a hideous meltdown, hit and kicked me and screamed blue murder.

She is also very bright and a perfectionist. She initially lost her temper because she was trying a game on the Wii that she couldn't master. I was on the phone to somebody phoning from overseas, so couldn't help.

When she loses it like this - always due to tiredness as she wakes up generally before 6am - I put my foot down. She was sent straight to her room, no stories, apologies asked for and tonight I have asked her to think what she should miss out on next week as her behaviour was so unacceptable. I'm hoping that by making her think about it she will register a bit more how badly she behaved. I also gave her a lecture about how disappointed I am, which I think is more upsetting to her than if I shouted.

I find DD responds better to routine and rules. Certainly it always ends in tears if we try to stay out late with other friends children.

Clock - we do singing on Mondays (at DS's request - he's obsessed) and Beavers on Thursdays. We've never gone in for after-school things, not least because I think he needs time to veg out!

We do routines and rules ad nauseam, and DS himself hates any deviation from the norm - we wouldn't dream of staying out late anywhere!!

He's at Beavers now, so I get an hour of peace and quiet with DD!!!

so funny to hear you all talk about exactly the same things that i have had to rack my brains about for years too. routine and sleep are absolutely key to our sanity too. i have never, ever been able to be a cool laid-back mum about bedtime, for instance. as you say dottoressa - we just would never have dreamed of staying out late under any circs!! until fairly recently my DD had never stayed up beyond 8-ish in fact - until we threw caution to the winds when she turned 7 and took her to her first ever music festival in july (a little cute one called nozstock, nothing fancy!) and ended up pitched near the techno tent - my LORD. she stayed up until the previously unheard-of time of 11.30pm and - to my amazement, but then she is a bit of a rocker had a blast, and the fall-out the next day was only moderately painful - but that's taken 7 years to achieve and i probably won't allow it again for another year!!

my DD had always had to get enough sleep or life is (even more) hell(-ish). i looked on in wonder as other kids stay up late, go to family reunions and hang out until 10pm etc - just not possible for us (apart from that astonishing exception above) without huge emotional lability and explosiveness the following day!

after-school activities we take quite cautiously like you. we've managed one or two, absolute max for DD since she was 5. she needs tons of time to veg out like yours and needs recovery time after the effort of keeping it together at school.

i was talking to a mum of FOUR v laid-back kids the other day and she confided in me that she was worried that she wasn't stimulating her kids enough - they only did a dozen activities each or some such number, ponies, ballet, mini-circus, you name it-inside i was thinking 'mmmh this is the luxury end of the worry scale'!! when you have a kid who looks like learning to ride a bike is going to keep her challenged on the after-school activity front til she's about 11, those sorts of 'worries' kinda tend to fall into the background!

Katie - LOL at the bike-riding-challenge!

It rings soooo many bells...

I do take my hat off to you and the techno-tent. That is quite some achievement!

thanks pal - i thought so too!!! DH and i lay awake all flaming night, while our kids snored through it all (doof doof doof doof doof doof ad infinitum - to think he and even i used to dance to that stuff in our carefree yoof) - the tedium of the beat broken only once by a screeching family in the next-door tent abusing their 5 yr old for having had the temerity to wake up when they stumbled in drunk around 4am! NICE! guess they probably weren't MNetters...

bike-riding - don't start me

We had another hideous day - it's the school holidays here. She was absolutely fine the first week, I had her booked into tennis camp in the morning and swimming lessons in the afternoon. No problems at all.

Second week I had her booked into Jungle camp. It was rubbish and I pulled her out after 2 days but then had nothing organised.

Cue massive meltdowns, tantrums, hitting etc.

This is her first year at school and I thought she'd really like to have the chance to chill out in the holidays, but as far as I can see having no structure sends her haywire.

She was awful today, hitting screaming etc, just over little things like hair brushing (Wii has been confiscated as punishment). She was a million times better once I made her do some violin practice and maths, and sat with her doing a sticker book. DP says that I'm over-scheduling her and that she needs time to relax, but we get a fall-out if we do. It seems that she has to be busy the whole time.

Is this ADHD or something. It's not is it? She can concentrate on things that she's interested in, but is bad at occupying herself and hates to be alone. Or just a child who needs a lot of stimulation? DP's eldest two sons were so opposite to this.

Arfishy - about "overscheduling" - my dd likes to be scheduled. I have a ds who can mooch around for hours doing his own thing quite peacefully without needing me to schedule stuff for him, but dd likes structure and form to her life.

Believe it or not (at the risk of sounding completely barking) she likes to play "schools" at home and for me to set her worksheets and challenges. Even some dinner times when she's a bit tired and making polite but unstructured conversation is too much for her, she likes to have a "school dinner" and for me to take an imaginary register, do "news time" and all that.

In the hols and at weekends we do have days out when dd really relaxes - we had a fab day in the summer hols when the 2 dc spent the whole day running in and out of the sea but in term time dd likes structure. Maybe it's because she's organised at school and comes home still in that mode.

I plied her with flapjacks and fruit juice after school yesterday and I think it helped. Her friend was round for dinner which could have been a bit of a nightmare as she can get really grumpy with her friends when she's tired etc but it all went peacefully!

I feel much better about things than I did last Friday.

hi arfishy
i used to dread the school holidays (and still get anxious about the long summer ones) - bcs my DD also needs structure and seems to miss it during the hols.
re ADHD - i sat in with a child psychiatrist last week who was assessing a kid with the condition. (i'm very part-time gp with an understandable interest in child psychology/psychiatry!!). i am sure that your daughter would not have coped so well with the first week of the hols ie tennis and swimming etc if she had ADHD - also she would find violin practice, maths etc very hard to settle to. if she can concentrate when she wants to ADHD is highly unlikely and you're probably - like most of us on this thread as far as i can see - looking at 'on the normal spectrum but bloody difficult at times' (that well known official medical classification!)
the only way i get through hols is through regular scheduled activities (but of course not too many or massive meltdowns from over-tiredness ensue...argh the tricky tightrope of dealing with these kids!!) and playdates - our saviour as we live in a deeply rural area. it took our 7 yr old DD a long time to cope with playdates but for the last 2 years they've gone much better. is yours up to them okay? or are they more trouble than they are worth, as used to be the case for us?

ooh clockface what a lovely cheery uplifting post - well done. and yes - get those flapjacks down her i say!!

Thanks Katie and Clockface. Wise words, thank you.

I agree, I don't think she's ADHD. She just needs constant stimulation I think. As an only child she doesn't have any siblings to bounce off either.

As it's her first year of school I started off thinking that she must be allowed to chill and wind down - the first holiday she was so exhausted she did. The second one we started to get the tantrums, which is why I booked up this third bunch. I felt guilty putting her into camp, I thought we should be together, but she loved it and didn't want me to collect her.

She's very different to the other children we know and other parents don't get it when I force her into bed at 7pm while theirs can stay up until 9pm without difficulty. They tut if she had a meltdown (usually caused by going out of routine) and are a bit judgy.

I'm pleased to have got your advice. Everybody is saying that she's just a child and doesn't need all these activities and should chill and do her own thing, but I think she does.

With playdates, it often depends on the other child. Some friends she reacts badly to, others she is fine with. Generally, playdates are good things. She likes to be with other children, especially younger ones, and loves looking after babies (and animals).

We have one more week of the holidays and I'm not going to let her chill. I think based on what we've seen from these last two holidays activity is the way to go. I'll just have to get DP to understand.

Thanks for your posts. I thought I was going mad! I don't know any other child like her.

arfishy
i'm totally with you on the feeling a bit alone and judged front. when DD was 4 then 5 i also didn't know any other kids like her, apart from one - but that little girl did actually have a SN label . but i DID know she HAD to be in bed by 7pm regardless of general consensus, or life wouldn't be worth living for any of us the next day! you've got to follow what's right for you and for your child, and stay strong (and a little bit thick-skinned). i cannot count the number of meltdowns (and, yes, corresponding 'tuts' from onlookers) we have had over the years, way beyond the age most other kids had stopped. the years 3, 4, and 5 were the hardest and things have (s-l-o-w-l-y) looked up ever since.
i think it's great your child loves camp so much. i couldn't have got mine to go at that age, i don't think, she really was totally exhausted by school at that stage and 'peopled out' (better now), but if yours loves it and is happy, then switch off that guilt switch straightaway! i bet you spend loads more time with her than a lot of other mothers.

oh and arfishy- promise me you will get your hands on a copy of 'raising your spirited child'. i KNOW i am very tedious, banging on about this book, and it is far from a cure-all, but at least it explains why kids like this behave the way they do! it's about kids who are MORE persisent, intense, sensitive, touchy, tantrum-prone - MORE in every way, really, than most kids. if you're not in the uk (just surmising from the fact that your hols are different) then there may be local workshops along these lines. not in the uk sadly- i have looked!

Thanks Katie , you're right I'm not in the UK. I'm an English expat in Australia. They have 4 holidays a year Outrageous.

I'll order the book from Amazon.com (no Aussie version alas). It sounds perfect actually. I've got the 1-2-3 magic book and that works wirh her, but I'd rather not have to get to that point.

It's awful the judging isn't it? I can see friends thinking it's because she's spoiled or an only child or because of some parenting inability on my part. They have children that get up after 4am, or 5am or 6am or even 7am, catnap in the day and occupy themselves sometimes.

DD is lovely and a lot more interested in stuff like patterns and Egypt and mummies and volcanoes. Some of her friends at 6 (DD is 5) are asking for high heels and bra-tops. DD likes prisms and hexagons and has written a piano class for me to take tomorrow (she doesn't know piano! I showed her which keys went with which notes and she's doing something suspect with her violin sheet music).

You always hear that children should be allowed to be bored sometimes, to give them time to think and work out games for themselves. I feel like a helicopter parent with all this fussing and planning.

oooh we just got back from a year in perth, then a year in dunedin. how long have you been there now? back later - bathtime looms SIGH!!

I've been here 3 and a half years now. DD was only 2 when we arrived, so more Australian than English.

How did you find Perth? Is it good to be back in the UK?

I've ordered the book from Amazon. Thank you!

great arfishy! we loved perth, but the memories are slightly tainted by the fact that it was the hardest year for me in terms of child-rearing, and DD was at her peak of demanding-ness(!) and tantrum-throwing. i was constantly finding myself in pristine, glowing-with-colour parks or on perfect beaches, but dealing with DD's outbursts while also trying to keep an eye on an active then 18-mth-old younger bro, while my DH seemed to be on permanent night shifts ie asleep in the day needing 'quiet, please' - yeah right!!!and far from any support etc. none of that was perth's fault and i thought it a beautiful place. the two criticisms i would make are - geographically very isolated, and very materialistic. but materialism is everywhere now isn't it (am i am not saying i am totally immune either, but it does depress me). we went on to check out NZ (LOVED it, but that really was isolation taken to an extreme!) then came back and i LOVE being back in the uk, strangely enough. i think bcs we chose a lovely rural area to return to, which is rather NZ-like in many ways. also it's just bliss to be able to pick up the phone to friends anytime, see them at weekends and i also love the odd foray into nearby europe - paris, lisbon recently. but i do miss lots of things about oz and nz and it's definitely the right thing for lots of people - i hope you are very happy there.

my DD is the opposite of the typical australian child (confident, very physical) so she didn't have the greatest time on all the ever-present monkey bars and amazing play equipment etc everywhere, but my son loved it and i think would have had lots more sports etc opportunities had we stayed - he's very that way inclined. we may go back when they are older and we can all cope better.

back soon, am pleased you ordered the book, let me know if any of it applies to you and if you find it useful won't you!

That's very interesting about Perth - I've never been, pretty much staying in the Sydney area or East Coast. I spend my holiday time and money flying back to the UK, so miss out on Aussie travel. I'm really surprised about the materialistic thing. I've always felt that Australia was much, much less materialistic than the UK, although the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney (where we are) seems to be on a par with London in that sense.

I spent the first 3 years of DD's life on my own with her in various countries while DP was in the UK, so I fully empathise with your experiences. It's pretty tough on your own away from home/friends/family. I remember regularly falling asleep on the rug after dinner, just crashing out because DD had been up since 4am, I'd worked and commuted all day and then spent 3 hours trying to get her into bed.

That said (and life is easier now DP is here) we love it here and I think DD will grow up a different child to the one she would have been in the UK.

And now DD and I are going out for a mummy/daughter dinner at a new Thai restaurant. We are working on trying a new food every day at the moment so I'll be interested to see what she has tonight.

arfishy - we have three sets of friends who love sydney and are now very settled there - i would be really interested to check it out. have only been as a tourist before. have a lovely evening - it's pouring here - yet another reason for you to stay put