dd1 (5 this week), having "bad feelings in her head" at bed time , bit long

[melsy]

and is terrified of "tubes coming to get people". Basically my nephew was innocently describing tornadoes some weeks ago and this was his description of them , but it seems to have sparked off a terrible and disabling fear for her at bedtime. She has also started talking of seeing blood soaked faces in her dreams and babies coming out of stomachs,(Im not sure here if dh has been less than discerning with what shes viewed on TV when hes around).

Whatever we say to calm her fears , she wont believe us and continues to get more and more hysterical and upset,She looks frantic and maniacally chews her sleeve of her pj's, tonight she got to the point of wetting herself standing at the door of her bedroom . Frequent bed wetting has also been occuring, but Im not sure if this is connected or if its just developmental.

In the last year shes become extremely aware and sensitive to things and the impact traumas can have on people. We talked many months ago about others in countries without much money, houses like ours and all the electrical things that we have. She's thought about and weeks down the line has started asking about it quite often and said that shes upset that they are not looked after or have the things we do . This is just an example of how her mind works and how intensely she feels things and thinks about things.

Its becoming very frustrating and perplexing as nothing seems to calm her down or rest her mind and it takes nearly 2 hours now to do bed time and Im frankly pulling my hair out.

Ive tried several approaches ; sending any unpleasant images into bubbles and making her burst them, telling her that we are here to look after her and protect her and she needn't worry, explaining that that sort of bad weather happens elsewhere, laying in bed with her and doing meditation and Reiki and also letting her sit and do drawing for 10-15 minutes after our bed time reading.

DH and I are disagreeing about our approach as he seems to want to take the hard line,( easy way out for him is to ignore her behaviour ), as he thinks I mollycoddle her.

I dont quite know what else to do. Its becoming a problem all round. Shes also making comments frequently about kids at school laughing at her and others pushing her and not wanting to play with her.

It all sounds all to familiar to me as a child . When shes started at a local nursery 2.1/2 yrs ago and did so well to integrate and make friends, fitting in brilliantly , being independent and happy, I was over the moon .I thought that history wasnt going to repeat itself. She then started nursery at the chosen school and unfortunately it was the start of a long bout of illness for her that often had her in hospital. The diagnoses was not immediately life threatening, but she had enough procedures and tests , leading to a routine surgery, to traumatise her now about medical things.

I'm worried that shes taking after me as Ive had a history with post traumatic stress disorder (from medical situations) and anxiety disorder and I'm worried that shes showing some of the same mental traits.

Im sorry if this is long winded and all over the place, but a lot has gone on in this little persons life and Ive wanted to post about it al for some time (takes me a while to pluck up courage to talk about it all on here or with anyone). I seem to be really stressed with it right now.

If I dont reply tis due to flaking in bed after 48hrs of dh sicky bug and me sleeping on sofa!!!!

Gosh, not really sure how I would handle this, but didn't want to read and run. Have you spoken to the teachers at her school? How is she when she is there? I think I would probably be inclined to try to get to the bottom of it and sort it out, especially if there is a chance that these anxieties might be grounded in realities (eg her hospital experiences) I hope she can get back to her happier self soon

You could try some CBT techniques? There are quite a lot of books out there, including some for kids I think.

My son has 'scary thoughts'. We talk about rating how scared he is on a scale of 1-10. Then we talk about how likely the things he's thinking about are (you'd have to adapt this for a younger child). We talk about how likely it is some really brilliant things could happen - like winning the lottery or being able to do magic. He can accept that because really rare things (good and bad) are quite unlikely then he can worry about them a tiny bit less. Then we reassess how scared he is after this discussion: it usually goes down.

I also think it is important to accept the scary thoughts, but to put them in context. Remind her that they are only thoughts - its OK to have them and move on. Even if they keep coming back, they can't harm her. Help her maybe make up other things that are 'only thoughts' - stories or imaginary things or magical ideas, and show her she's in control of them and they can do no harm. She can't make things happen by thinking it, and she might need reminding of this.

I think fear of random events is entirely normal - I wouldn't ignore it TBH, but you can give her tools for dealing with normal fear.

I'm prone to anxiety and was like this as a child. I think one thing you can do that might really help is listen to her, and agree with her to an extent, so that she feels understood. You want to reassure her, but not brush all the bad things away and negate them and just "get rid" of them, because to her they are real, and they are in fact real (ie there are scary things and bad things out there) and it is part of getting older that children start to address that. So however much you say it's all fine, she knows what she's seen and heard about and it won't go away, it'll stay in her head until she can make sense of it, IYSWIM.

Try letting her talk about it and explaining how and why some of those things happen, then explain that we do our best to be careful and look after each other and stay safe and happy. With specific fears eg tornadoes, you can talk about the ways people stay safe, eg they have special storm cellars to hide in until the tornado has gone.

Melsy, there are a lot of things going on here. It sounds as if your DD is getting a lot of very sensible and loving support from you and your DH.

As joolyjoolyjoo suggests, a chat with the school would be a good step to take from here. Any help or counselling your daughter needs and gets now (if she does need it) would give her great skills for dealing with things throughout her life and so getting to the bottom of things now would be a positive thing if you see what I mean. (If I'm a bit incoherent I have a four-week old baby and am a bit sleep deprived).

My DS is a worrier on this scale, and often gets into phases of quite powerful worrying. I remember reading a query about worrying children in the Guardian's family pages and all the respondents who had had worryng children were keen to stress that this can be a normal phase for bright children who notice a lot of detail in the world around them but don't have the emotional wherewithal yet to process it fully.

What we try to avoid is following up each expression of anxiety DS produces. The more we respond with worry to his worries, the more extreme they get. So, we give a rational, and reasonably light response when he says he is worried.

If he pursues it then we put a time limit on how long we are going to talk about global warming/death or whatever it is that is pre-occupying him. So I'll chat about the topic, and then say. 'Right, well it's good to chat about that, but we should probably think about something really good now to cheer ourselves up.'

If he persists, we put the worry in our 'worry box' (my closed palms, which my thumbs lock) in a version of your bubble strategy. If he persists again, which happens less and less, I firmly say that we're not going to worry about this any more because 'worry makes worry, just like happy makes happy'. DS is unreasonably fond of catchphrases.

The general gist of all this, is that I try to get him to acknowledge things that worry him, and tackle them, but also to move on beyond them so that worry doesn't fester. Is this the thing your DH is moving towards?

Now DS is five, I've taken to adding to these discussions the point that things are always going to crop up to worry about (starting school, the car not starting) and so knowing how to think about them and move on is an important thing to know how to do.
I also remind him about previous worries and how he conquered them (we look back in the worry box and he tells me they have shrunk or gone).

This is a ramble and it makes me sound like a parent who operates off a particularly preachy manual, but repeating the same process with different worries has really helped DS. The worries are getting less frequent, and he is currently being a very sunny boy. He just needs a bit of help getting back to sunny when he gets mired in worry. I am demented by worry when he is in one of these spells though and so can guess at how traumatic they can be for you and DH.

I hope this helps, in some way. Let us know how things go ...

Your description of your dd touched me, because she sounds so like I was as a child - and I just wish my parents had been as imaginative, patient and understanding about my worries as you are.

The things you are doing about the worries sound brilliant. Can I just make a suggestion about treating the bedtime problem slightly separately? My dd (who is 7) is not a worrier, but we did get into a phase a while back when bedtime was taking 2 hours, because she just couldn't switch off any kind of thoughts - her mind whizzed round and round like a hamster on a wheel. We tried massage etc, and it didn't get us anywhere much. Then we bought her a cd of cheesy relaxation music, and it worked like a dream (ho ho) - it rapidly became an incredibly effective sleep cue. Might be worth a try, if you haven't already tried something like this?

This doesn't address the core issue, but things might be easier for you and her if bedtime was quicker and less stressful - and if she was therefore getting more sleep - being a bit short of sleep may not be helping her worries (I am still a bit of a worrier, and so much more so when I am tired).

People have said most of it already. It is not uncommon at this age; basically, the first time you have to confront the fact that it's a scary old world out there, it is going to frighten you. It's when you get to our age that you start being a bit blase about it all. CBT is a good idea, as mentioned, letting her air her worries and then teaching her how to put them away and control her thoughts.
With worrying about the state of the world, I would also stress the upbeat stories; people's lives being changed when they get the right kind of help, that sort of thing. Point out that you and her can make a difference to the world, by supporting charities etc. We sponsored a child when I was little, that was a good way to help my fears. Let her know that she will be able to change at least parts of the world for the better, that there is always something you can do.

Thank you all so far for your input into this, its quite layered as someone recognised. I have at some point, through the last few months, done several of the techniques suggested, but you know what its like when its say the 5th or 6th night in the row and your head seems to hit a block and you just cant think what to do except scream into a pillow!

Im just wondering if I need to be more consistent with the ones that have been successful. I use a combination of CBT like wilfsell suggested and the bubble/worry box like Sibh.

Id like to respond to all of you in more detail at some point later, for now my head is reeling from tiredness and I cant seem to think straight.

sorry I didnt come back to all of you, weve all been ill this week.

DD1 is still continuing to stretch bedtime on and on and on and on. Every night its something new , no sooner have you dealt with one new bit of information shes found out, then another thing needs sorting and sorting and sorting. It all seems to be medical problems that a human can encounter or a cataclysmic weather event.

It doesnt matter what we say to help she wants us to sit with her for ages and ages and ages.

I cant take the mental twisting it does

Please help, I don't know what to do , this is escalating to her being up till nearly 9pm and standing at her door saying shes scared and wants me.

Bare in mind I may have been to her say 6-7 times, discussing how to think about happy things, how nothing bad has happened like she thinks and on and on and on. I tell her its OK to have these feelings , but that she can change them to OK thoughts.

Do we need to get some professional help? as this coincided with bed wetting also.

Tonight's been made worse by accidentally opening her Disney book to the Mickey Carol page and her seeing the ghost book and me realising that may be I shouldn't be reading it to her. Cue more questions about why IM not reading it.

Its also impossible to go out right now and have baby sitters. Dh works late many nights and I have evening classes.

I don't agree with staying in and the child controlling my every move, but at the moment evenings away are intensely anxious times.

I think asking GP for advice may help? Maybe not with your dd present? Poor thing, I was/am a terrible worrier, really sympathise

I think you should get some help. Not just because she sounds so upset and sensitive but because you are obviously finding it very stressful too. Is your gp or hv any good?

also, what Zazette said about cds. Either relaxation type music or a really soothing story that will absorb her and help her switch off the other thoughts. I was pretty stressed after splitting up with partner and found going to sleep with the radio on helpful.

melsy, you've already had tons of great advice, so won't go repeating it all.
I think you should go back to Sibh's post.

she mentions putting a time-limit on talking about stuff. perhaps you could try this?

I do not doubt at all that your dd is really suffering here, and that these thoughts and fears are very real for her.
but I also wonder if, having realised that it gets her a lot of attention and you'll come and talk to her as soon as she does it, whether she is maybe also intentionally thinking of more things so that you will go and stay with her?

the time limit is good though, show her the clock and say that we've got until x time to talk about anything that's worrying you tonight and then we'll lock it all away in the worry box and talk about something else.

then it is time for bed. no arguments.

tell her you're right there, just doing some jobs upstairs. make sure you make a bit of noise putting some clothes away or something so that she knows you are still upstairs with her.

also, have you looked into relaxation techniques that you could maybe do with her in the evenings before bed? yoga? massage?

yeah actually going to bed with some music on or something might really help. in general I am not a fan of this, but if she has something to listen to rather than her own thoughts it might help to break the cycle

good idea, TIS - dd had probs falling asleep, with hectic thoughts, and I got her one of these relax kids

she really likes it

My little girl has a temperment rather like this although not as extreme -yet-,and so does the son of one of my friends.with my freind's boy what helped most as others suggest was taking him seriously and working with him to sort out something to help him feel reassured.I think a similar approach works on my daughter but she is three so quite a bit smaller-sorry not much help but I know how you must feel and i too worry that my dd has inherited this from me somehow.I am sure things will get better,maybe if things get better for her at school? Helping her make a special friend?Asking her teacher for help? Wishing you luck.

Melsy I thought I would just let you know that you aren't alone in this problem and you could be writing about my DD1 (just turned 10). See my thread here for advice others have given me.

It's more common than you think (not that it makes it easy to handle). I shall watch this thread with interest. Sending you lots of hugs.xxx

I'd go to the GP and report what is going on - my DD is also sensitive and intuitive and gets herself into a right old state at times - just at the end of reception she wase exhausted and started alking about killing herself _ I went straight to GP at my wits end. She was referred to the camhs service and had about 8 sessions with a play therapist. It was great. She is still a worrier and does get uptight (tho less so as she gets that bit older - she's 6 now) but it helped her and us to get strategies. She was also able to talk to the therapist one to one and so anything REALLY troubling would hopefully have come out there. I know what you mean about projecting your own history onto your child and you really should (imvho) try to resist doing this - I do it and it's not all good. It can be very helpful in terms of empathising with the child which is obviously great and necessary but it's important not to do too much of it or I think you may end up reading the whole situation in a very particular way.
You mention that you and your DH have different approaches to this - are there other tensions in the relationship I wonder? kids (especially bright emotionally sensitive and intuitive ones like your DD) are very quick to pick up on what you might think are very well hidden stresses and tensions between their loved ones...maybe she is just picking up some stress about your responses to teh situation she is creating, or maybe more...

I second the cheesy tape thing by the way, or some classical music. I do lavender oil massage when DD is really bad - helps her sleep and calms me down when it's getting to teh two hour stage...although, touch wood, we seem to be past that now

anyway, good luck to you. It's a rotten situation to be in and you have my fullest sympathies

Thank you all for your continued advice.

Im sorry if my tone is tetchy , Im a bit frazzled tonight!

dinny , the GP practise here is awful awful. Totally messed up last year with her and misdiagnoses and not just one of them , several of them. Its very very hard to change practise round here as they are all over subscribed. I think I will look into it again though. The relaxation one says its from 7 upwards ,would this be ok for 5YR old?

harpomarx, with my GP practise as it is , I dont quite know how to or were to go. My Hv is ok , but I cant stand the feeling of someone watching me.(a lot of this is self pride in my abilities in the past to always manage things and be self sufficient), I think its the leo in me. Its very uncomfortable, I hate that intense involvement in my life, Ive been through so much with dd already and her medical problems last year. I think its why I like using the Internet.

thisisyesterday , you are right there is great advice here, but I have seriously tried many of the techniques. Im a reiki practitioner in training and I spend time giving this to her on several evenings. Ive also been using meditation cd's and relaxation music with her since she was a toddler , but even those are setting her off!!

although tonight after reading a thread on the sleep section here, I had a brainwave to use her PO to be her little protector and that she can put all her worries and yucky pictures in him. She told me , its ok if I give it to him , as it doesnt upset him! It seems to have done the trick for now! Now I wont be able to lose that PO!

You know what , Im probably sounding really ungrateful to you all . I think I just feel like Ive failed somewhere and feel very responsible for this. I know its development causing the change, but I just cant seem to do the right thing. It just feels chaos right now. dd2 also likes to lay on the floor at her gate and yabber and bang the door after bed time, so I cant relax at all.

My mum always said what a great job Ive always done; I have/had a lovely routine ,they always ate well, fell asleep quickly , seemed balanced and happy.

Now all this

It sounds so obvious and very much easier said than done but you have to distract her away from the thoughts. Don't indulge them, don't belittle them, but move her away from them.

I suffered terribly from anxiety as a child and had a mixture of parenting to deal with it - a father who was overly indulgent and understanding and a mother who really had no time for it at all. Both were no help.

My dd's nearly 6 and she began to have a very anxious phase around 4 1/2, talking about death and accidents and becoming quite phobic about certain images and sounds in books / DVDs / windows. She became terrified of the sound of clocks for instance. I, like you melsy, immediately understood where she was coming from, and my first move was to do all kinds of 'magical' neutralising things similar to some of those you've listed. Dp stepped in though and although I don't think he'd have said I was being 'mollycoddling' (he's had his share of neuroses over the years) he did think I was actually escalating the problem by taking it so seriously. I then adopted a kind of matter-of-fact, kind but brief approach to the things dd talked about and it worked really well really quickly. She'll still occasionally start talking about something that troubles her and I take it seriously but I try to 'contain' it, it's important that she knows by my replies and facial expressions that there is nothing to worry about.

Personally I don't think of this kind of thing as a bedtime delaying tactic. If your dd is like mine, the anxiety is totally real and well beyond a 'manipulative' kind of behaviour. But I do think it can be put into perspective quite painlessly by the right response. From everything I know (work / research / experience) about obsessive thinking, the kindest approach a loved one can take is to not indulge the obsession, to not become caught up in the drama of it, but to fend it off while at the same time acknowledging it as real.

Ramble. Sorry. Hope your tummies are all better now.

Thank you helly , caro and regularly. All great supportive encouragement.

Regularly , that must have been very upsetting all round with such an extreme reaction.Im glad shes ok now. Ive not heard of cahms , I will have a look at it.

I didn't think I was projecting , just that I saw parallels in her sensitive reactions and her intuitiveness and worries. Im now thinking of what it means in my situation to be projecting.

you don't sound ungrateful at all!

but you know, I think sometimes we (as parents) can get fixated on the "quick fix". which isn't always right, or appropriate.

sometimes things take time. I think if you persevere with any/all of the suggestions you think may work with dd that you need to maybe do it for a few weeks before you see a real concrete improvement.

apologies if you've already done this and it still isn't working. just it seems to me that we have this whole "quick fix" thing rammed down our throats all the time, and sometimes it just doesn't work that way.

glad that telling Po has helped though maybe that will be the key!

I also meant to add that my dd has a severe nut allergy and almost died during an anaphylactic shock shortly before her anxieties began. So there may well be some post-traumatic stress going on too.

regularly , you not far off the mark , but I cant disclose too much openly really. Dh and I are not the most balanced couple together, theres lots of frustrations and resentments between us. Its not alll bad though , but we dont always have the best connection.

Hi imaginary , sounds exaclty the same as dd1. How do you acknowledge , whilst distract. How does that play out? Sorry if sounding ignorant , Im just confused now I think! Not difficult for me!

The evening starts very light, if she mentions things ,I say ahh well , your all tucked up in bed now and we have a great day planned tommorow, I say goodnight , give her 10minutes drawing book time and then its lights out. Its just escalates from there as she wont stop asking questions and talking and talking and calling and again I go up , say dont worry , just think of something nice and I end up listing them out for her. I come down , and it starts again 10 minutes later.

Tonights other suggestion to her before meltdown was for us to design a happy picture list, like a written joy list but pictorial iywim??????

Is this all to indulgant?

I suppose Im trying to show her tools to deal with things practically.