behavioural issues or just natural 6 year old exuberance?

[LackaDAISYcal]

DS 6 is getting increasingly hard to manage. He is completely hyperactive at all times and does everything at full tilt and full volume. Whenever he starts something he gets so giddy and carried away and usually ends up hurting either himself or my 14 mo old DD in the process as his self preservation mechanism sems to disappear. He acts up everywhere we go, to the point that taking him onto shops is a nightmare as he picks up food off the shelves and tries to throw stuff around. He never listens and although we try and speak to him calmly and rationally, after six attempts at trying to get him to calm down and listen I end up losing the plot and having to bellow at him to even get his attention. He kicks off at the slightest thing as well, usually over the slightest thing, and once he starts there is no calming him down.

We have tried everything, naughty steps, time out, sending him to his room, star charts, taking toys away, denying him pre-organised treats and nothing works.

My 14mo old DD is starting to pick up on his behaviour and thinks that shouting is normal and that it's OK to scream if you aren't getting your own way. I'm struggling with depression at the minute and am 6.5 months pregnant to boot and feel like I just can't cope with either of them any more.

DH actually asked me at the weekend whether I thought it might be something like ADHD. His schoolwork has been deteriorating and his behaviour in school is getting worse too and he had had a few full blown tantrums there too shortly before the end of term. He kicks off over the slightest thing, and I can't get him to sit and do homework at all as he starts and if he does it wrong gets himself in such a state.

There are so many things and triggers and I'm getting scared to even talk to him as I know he is going to kick off. DH works away four days a week and I am really struggling to cope with it on my own.

things have been pretty unsettled at home for a couple of years and he has had a lot of upsets, losing two grandparents, moving house twice, me having two MCs, starting school, a new baby and now another new baby on the way, as well as his Dad changing jobs and now working away and my depression. I know the effect all of this has had on me (they were my parents), and think it's probably got lots to do with all of that, but I just don't know how to handle it.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Every day is a new day Daisy.

Read your books and when eh comes home sit him down, explain that you don't think you can go on this way and that there are some basic rules you want him to follow and some he wants from you, sign it, both of you, and start a new with the tactics you want to use.

I'd include things in the 'rules' like if he says he doesn't want you to shout, Agree to it, but say instead of shouting at him you'll say 'sofas aren't for jumping on' as long as he listens etc

I suspect we don't have enough paper in the house for the list of rules

Sounds like a good plan though, and DH will be home tomorrow so we can go through it together.

I sometimes feel that we pile way too much on him though with all the explanations of this that and the other. We have always treated him pretty much as an equal and given him lots of input into family decisions and control over his own little world and encouraged him to have an opinion as we thought this was the right thing to do, but maybe he needs to know that we are in charge because we are the grown ups and needs the security that that knowledge brings? I just don't know any more.

Daisy, this might sound harsh, but I think you know me well enough not to take offence (you know if you start with a post with a disclaimer you might not like it)

I think you do need to look at how you behave towards him and your reactions. Super-strength camomile tea, deep breathing exercises, walking away, sitting locked in the bathroom for 5 minutes, whatever it takes for you to not take the bait.

Any guilt on your part involved? Only asking because as you know I had a BIG issue with it when DC2 came along and it really affected my behaviour. I behaved horribly sometimes, somethings I am ashamed of (involved a lot of screaming).

He is trying to push your buttons and succeeding. Strikes me he's a determined little fella and keeps going until he succeeds. Can you (we?) come up with a way of helping you cope before it comes to kicking off?

If he's being gobby over nothing then do nothing. Of course you don't want him talking to you like that, so tell him that calmly and walk away. Then ignore, ignore, ignore. Take back the control. He is angry, you are angry. One of you has to stop it first, and you are the grown-up.

Deep breath, start afresh. Make the most of him not being there by reading the books and making some changes.

I am trying very hard not to reward/punish/bribe today. I am not going to shout, demand or nag. Which explains why one of my children has yet to clean his teeth and another is unwashed, in pjs, teeth not cleaned. At least DD has done it all, except she is wearing a tutu and wooly tights

Hi Daisy.
Sympathy.
Ds has been a nightmare for some time now. Must dig out How to talk book. Remind myself. It is good.

It is VERY interesting that he said he is full of anger.
How to talk, encourages children to express emotion. Ds often says he is "sad", but when I try and find out why, I never get to what 'I' think is a real/just cause.
Take heart in the fact that he is expressing / recognising anger. Maybe you need to dig a bit deeper to try and work and why. And how you can solve these probs.
Also, I think HTT teaches them/ encourages, that anger is o.k. - i.e. it does not need to be 'solved'. BUT, that there are acceptable and unnacrptable ways of displaying it.

foxy, I know it already . I do think that having DD has affected how I feel about him, but I am trying to work through these issues. Lots of guilt about being able ot BF her but not managing with him, guilt about DH being around for her and not him, future guilt about how I'll feel when DS2 comes along, especially if i get my VBAC and can BF, guilt about how my depression, anxiety and panic attacks have affected him as he has seen much more than he should. My main worry is that it's too late to rectify any damage that's been done and that our relationship is irrepairable. I can cope with that I think (I mean I'm his mum, he's not supposed to like me is he?), but he has started to take it out on DH as well, and previously they were rock solid (although that is probably a lot to do with DD's arrival in the family)

Thanks Obs for your....obs . I am working on it. The anger I think comes from seeing me blow my fuse 100 times in a day; As the motto of our children's centre went "Children Live What They Learn". He sees anger from me so his forst response is to kick off. I'm trying, but this blasted depression makes it very hard. I'm not excusing my behaviour in any way though. I'm getting help and counselling for the depression, but it's a slow job, it really is.

Basically I am feeling like a shit parent and don't know what I can do to change that. A few books seems like a very poor attempt to try and get it right.

Daisy, Daisy, Daisy, will you please put down that big stick you are beating yourself with!

You are not a shit parent. If you were you'd be blaming DS and ignoring the issues.

It is NOT irrepairable. You have just got to stop wasting your precious energy on that negative guilt emotion. Spend that energy creating good memories. That was a big thing for me. I don't want my children growing up with only negative memories - as I do of my parents. It helped me break my shouty cycle.

It is not your fault you couldn't BF him, hell, do any of us do things the same second/third/fourth time round? All we can do, like in anything we want to do well, is try to get it right. It just so happens that we have more opportunities to do it the more children we have! I am doing things completely differently this time round (though not necessarily right still...). If you get your VBAC and BF it is because you have fought for it, and have persisted. It is your determination which makes these things happen. It is not to feel guilty of, but be proud of. We do the best for our children. Each child, each time. But we do live and learn and experience and information teaches us to do things differently. If you didn't do things differently for DS1 it is because you were doing the right thing at the time.

But I really can't help thinking that it is not DSs behaviour we need to help with, but some coping/managing/relaxation techniques and your wellbeing. I think we need to focus on helping you break this negative cycle. Do you want to?

I will chat to you anytime if you want to do it on FB or email me, and I have MSN (infinitely better than Instant Messaging on FB). Then I can stop my lengthy witterings on here

thanks foxy

I don't do MSN; not sure how it works, but I'll email you....or chat next week when I see you!!!!!

and yes I do want to

I agree with Foxy. Give yourself a break Daisy. You are a very good mum. Else you wouldn't be here asking, becasue you wouldn't care.

you know I should have called this thread behavioural issues (mine) AND natural 6yo exuberance

thanks obs. I know you are right. If I didn't care, I wouldn't care so to speak.

Funny thing is I can see myself doing all the negative parenting I came to expect (and hate) from my own mum. and that scares the bejesus out of me as we had a less than perfect relationship.

and that Daisy is the driving force - how do we learn to be parents? From ours of course. But we can change things. I always say my mum taught me how NOT to do it.

Although I did briefly turn into her tonight

I am intrigued by how your DS1 and my DS1 will get on. Will either be love or hate from our fiesty pair I reckon!

lol, I think you're right, but it'll probably be hate but DS will talk about your DS non stop like he is his best and longest friend. Have you met andie and her two before? her DS is 7 or 8 I think so the older ones will have a few others to play with.

Can't wait to meet everyone. I've got the Yorkshire picnic on Friday as well and am meeting up with justjules (from the knicker checkers thread tomorrow). tis the week for meeting MNers.

have just sobbed down the phone to DH; I think I need to see my lovely doc about upping my dose. He said it might be necessary as the pregnancy progresses. I just wish it I could wake up tomorrow and feel normal for once

anyhoo am off to bed and will worry about the state of this place in the morning.

I feel a wave of recognition for a lot of what you describe. I also don't have any brilliant ideas that have worked for me but I do have a suggestion and I hope you take it the right way. (It comes with disclaimers).
it might be worth finding out about any parenting courses in your area. ours has loads. I only managed half of one due to family circumstances but it was really good. I know they might seem to come with some kind of stigma but our courses weren't just full of 'failed parents made to go on course' but concerned parents who wanted to do the best for their kids. it was a space to talk to other mums about problems and the facilitator was amazing. I looked at lots of things differently after that.
so the disclaimer is - don't read any kind of negative opinion of your parenting into my suggestion. you sound a really caring and concerned mum who needs a bit of time to herself (they also provide creche on our courses. I was pregnant when I did mine and just appreciated the time for a cuppa!).

no offense taken morrocco . The local children's centre run parenting classes I think. I'll definately look into it.

(sigh of relief at no offense being taken)

it was our sure start that ran ours but I know there were a few other programmes in our area as well, all slightly different(ahem, not sure what that says about where I live )

Hi again Daisy - sorry you had a bad day. It happens.

Good luck with the UP thread - it's long!

In response to the bit about doing things differently from your own parents, I think this is a common process we all have to go through, deciding if we will do things the same or differently. I can now consciously see myself repeating bad patterns from my own childhood and therefore try to make changes. In my case it is particularly related to expressing emotions. My parents were (and still are) all about appearances, so if ds is kicking off about something, the most important thing for my parents is that he stops asap. They would never consider why he is shouting or crying. My instinct used to be just to try and stop him tantrumming, but I have learnt over time that he gets over it much more quickly if I take the time to find out what the problem is etc and not punish him for feeling angry or whatever. This is just one example but hopefully you see what i mean.

I can fully appreciate where you are coming from there KTNoo.

I tried to put some of the "how to" stuff in practice tonight, but to no avail. DS, within the space of two hours since he got home, has kicked off over his dinner, whether or not his dad was using chopsticks, the fact his sister wouldn't give him a cuddle, being reminded to take his shoes off....and on and on. And when he did kick off there was no reasoning with him. I tried the "boy, you're really angry" tack and he just railed on and on and on. I think I need to read more of the book as I had no ideas on how to respond and it certainly didn't work as well as the little role plays in the book!

Still, tomorrow is another day and we are off to the Yorkshire MN picnic so there will be plenty to distract/exhaust him.

Thanks for all the replies.