Is this "normal " behaviour for a four year old?

[jasper]

My dh is worried about our dd aged four. He has concluded she is "unteachable".

SHe reached all developmental milestones and was always very physically advanced and could talk , count, recognise letters early etc BUT...

Where it comes to applying the normal house rules governing the kids ' behaviour (big brother , 5, wee brother 2) she seems to be completely devoid of understanding.

If say she asks for a jigsaw and a pile of toys are strewn over the carpet and we say "put away the other toys and I will get your jigsaw " she will look at us with a look of total incomprehension and say "but I don't WANT to put away my toys". she seems to genuinely not understand the concept of "if...then..." as opposed to her just being deliberately naughty ( which of course she is sometimes too). If she sets her mind to do or not do something she is absolutely immovable.SHe assumes an attitude as if we are total idiots for making the request.

That sounds trivial but there are other things. Today she was building a tower of cushions that kept falling down. She was frustrated so picked uher big brother HARD across the head. DH immediately picked her up and put her in the "isolation "room and she screamed hysterically throughout as if she had been the victim of some terrible miscarriage of justice.

Most of the time she is sweet and adorable but about 5% of the time it is as if a switch has been flicked in her brain and she is completely MENTAL.SHe goes into a screaming trance. Her eyes glaze over and her face goes white. She appears semi-conscious.
I hope the word "mental"does not offend - I am in Scotland and there is no better word to describe her.

DO you think this is normal behaviour or should we be worried? I am not particularly worried but DH is convinced there is something the matter with her brain and has asked me to ask my mumsnet pals.

glad it's not just my ds2 aged 4. He's very hard to handle at times but I'm getting there. His running in the opposite direction to where we're going is his classic tool to annoy me. He's sooo stubborn but it's gettng better. It is good to know he's not alone as my MIL calls his behaviour weird at times which winds me up no end

I could be totally wrong here but is she looking for extra attention? Does she get a lot of your focus when she behaves like this? Your kids sound close in age and maybe she wants more fuss made of her (not saying you don't make a fuss of her, just that she wants MORE!). So would ignoring be an option - a la Little Angels?

Aloha my three are very close in ages (all born within 3 years) and on the surface dd is the least demanding, quite happy to play alone. If I am in the room my two boys always want to play with me.

I have recently tried to give her extra attention when she is in "neutral" mode to see if that makes a difference

I don't know about anyone else, but giving ds extra attention when he's in 'neutral' has no bearing on his ability to control his explosions, unfortunately.

Please don't think I'm being critical. I am sure I will get a strong willed dd next to pay me back for an easygoing ds! Just seen miracles happen on LIttle Angels by ignoring big strops and defiance and have mentally filed it all away for future use. All the girls I know seem somehow more complex than the boys, which I never thought I'd say, as a feminist. They seem much more grown up and sophisticated at the same time though.

My point was not so much to give extra attention/praise when not playing up as NO attention when she is - I certainly wasn't implying you don't pay attention to your kids.

Oh no, sorry, aloha, I didn't take it as you being critical at all - have just re-read my post, and it does read a bit like that . It's just as someone said earlier - this needing a trigger to allow the emotion to escape is a bit bewildering and upsetting sometimes, for all concerned.

I'm sure it's really, really stressful. I suppose the thing is that they are their own people with their own personalities, and you can't be responsible for that. My ds is much more easygoing than I am, so I know I didn't make him like that. I have more tantrums than he does

Our dd is easy peasy, so it's quite nice for dh and I to know that it's not us doing everything wrong with ds!

well, exactly!

I do give no attention when she is stropping alone- like when getting dressed - just calmly force her into her clothes silently like charliecat does.

The problem is when the bad behaviour involves her thumping/noising up one of her brothers(which she will openly do in front of me and Dh)
which is bad behaviour which CAN'T be ignored!

I always smile at the advice to "ignore bad behaviour, reward good" as it nearly always comes from parents of only one child

The other thing I wanted to say is that this behaviour does get better (a bit!!). At 4 my ds had exactly the same tantrums about getting dressed and he was scarily obsessive about putting on and taking off his shoes up to 20 times until they seemed somehow perfect in a way that we just couldn't understand. Our neighbour described him as 'a child from hell' because she had regularly seen me carrying him half dressed kicking and screaming down the road to get his big brother to school on time. (Glad to say said neighbour now has a child from hell of her own who she admits is even worse!) DS now 6 still has regular tantrums and is like a wound coil at times but he does get dressed most days without much fuss and the tantrums are now only when he is clearly stressed about small boy problems such as playground politics and birthday parties. (They say stubborness and tantrums are a sign of intelligence, don't they? - let me believe it anyway!)

Hi Jasper
My DS sounds very similar in a lot or ways - particularly the flicking a switch when frustrated bit.
I posted in the middle of last week after he was sent home from nursery for hitting out.
We have to go to a meeting next week with the teacher about it.
After reading this thread, I feel so much more reassured that he isn't completely abnormal, and it is beginning to put it into perspective a bit for me.
I wish I knew what practical steps I could take to avoid the outbursts though.
How do you teach a four year old to Try,try again and not explode in a rage - something I'm sure we all feel like doing from time to time.

Completely agree about children (actually adults too if I'm honest) sometimes "needing" to have a tantrum - my 4yo dd is just like that too. Also the needing a cuddle thing, absolutely.

My feeling is that my job, looked at in the long term, is to teach her that she is really capable of getting her own feelings back on track - calming herself down - so she gets very matter of fact treatment during the tantrum and then masses of praise (sometimes through gritted teeth) and hugs when she's managed to stop herself creating.

jasper, my ds is 4 and all our battles seem to be about his taking gratuitous 'stands' about something. 'I don't want to' being his major logic, we have little success in tidying and a lot of achievements in the past have been simply bribed behaviour which is they say, not ideal. Sometimes he acts like his whole life depends simply on thwarting us.
Lately I have lots more success with him when I totally relax (and try to make dh relax too) calm voices, as much ignoring of the bad behaviour as possible, but mostly absolutely determined calmness (sometimes fake!) accompanied by loads of extremely distracting suggestions, "Oh daddy, did ds tell you about the aMAzing lego car he made? I'll go and get it!". I only have one child but he can dominate us completely - you may have your hands way too full but the calm thing has worked occasional wonders for me lately. It's as if it totally disarms him and baffles his tactics. It's as if they must not ever even see one iota that they are winning in your eyes - when ds sees that - he knows what he's doing is working. I find it a daily/hourly challenge!
Also 2 books I dip into often are Toddler Taming (still relevant to my ds sometimes..) and The secret of happy children (can't remember authors names) both books remind me of useful tricks. all the best

Aloha it really does not stress me too much but it drives dh seriously mad which in turn stresses me and the whole family .

in my mind the problem is not dds but dhs reaction.

the comments here have been very helpful in convincing him there is unlikely to be anything actually wrong with her.

I always laugh at the advice, too! Usually it comes from someone with one child, or with 2 incredibly easy children (eg my sister). If I just had dd, then I too would be happy to take the credit!

jasper, have you looked at the book The Explosive Child? Not a great title, but I have heard it is helpful with children with very strong feelings.

girlfromipanema I LOVE toddler taming and have a very soft spot for the author because it was on a websearch for Christopher Green that I found mumsnet.

Binkie, not seen that one but will look out for it. Thanks.

I loved Toddler Taming too - very realistic and down to earth. Sheila Kitzinger I could do without...!

paolosgirl likewise my sister has two kids and she loves to boast about the fact they never fight (which is true) but that is because her ds is very domineering and her dd is totally submissive.(both adorable kids)

I have watched her ds get very frustrated around other kids as he can't boss them about like he does to his sister

Jasper, I love Toddler Taming too. I also wanted to tell you my other inspiration recently - sorry this is long - I spent a w/end with ds and a friend who's a very experienced primary school teacher. she thought ds's behaviour was fine and asked me and dh not to worry at all. When I saw that she thought he was fine, we relaxed and ds behaved better immediately. I think we were creating the tension.
The next morning on a car ride to the park ds (about absolutely nothing) screamed blood-curdlingly all the way like a demented banshee and she just totally calmly ignored it, I copied her (I was SO ANGRY with him but hid it), and we quietly spoke to each other all the way (easily 10 long mins - felt like 10 hours). He stopped at the park, had a ball and behaved well for the rest of the day - amazing. She is my hero - she works a lot with bullying and has this immensely strong calm gentle air of authority which I try now to emulate!
Paolosgirl, I know it looks easier to have one child but honestly, friends and family with three children and particularly people with daughters think my ds is quite a handful. He was a late, much wanted child with all our attention, he's been quite spoilt in that way and had until quite recently totally dominated us to the point where I fell out with my sister about his behaviour! One child can create more stress because you have to entertain them more and they can expect quite a high level of stimulation. Sorry to be so defensive but I would love to have two because they might entertain each other a bit - or so I often see. I know more children are more work but I would love to have more than one!

Have skipped a load of posts here as just going to bed...but whereas for years dd would make sure she was having a tantrum for all to see and so noone could get any peace now I can say...if your going to behave like that could you go somewhere else and do it...and she does...she stomps to her room....screams...makes a lot of noise and comes back up better...not happy and smiling, but not making everyone elses life a misery. So theres light....!