Postive input needed for approaching sleep / holding issue with 8 week old

[themadsinger]

I posted here afew weeks ago about the sleeping problems with our daughter (M) who is now nearly 8 weeks, although she was 3 weeks premature (but still 6lb 10oz). I am Dad by the way, and this is our second child ? first is 26 months. At that time, I was shot down on any suggestion of trying to get her into a sleep routine using some sort of crying down.

However, we are now in the situation where M will not even really be put down day or night without crying. If you put her in her rocker and talk to her, she will last afew minutes before starting. AT night, she has to sleep on either myself or my Partner. If we put her in her basket awake she screams the place down and asleep she can go sometime half and hour before waking up, finding where she is and starting. It is really starting to get us down. My other half suffered from PND after out first and I see the signs now of the same she says she cannot even get showered in the morning and hence I often come home and still find her in her pjamas and unable to have gotten out. I do what I can but I have to go to work end of.

My feeling is that if we can sort out the sleeping then the day issue will follow, but please let me know if the more experienced think this is not the case and the two things have to be approached in different ways.

I want to start some sort of crying down and am interested in advice on how best to approach this. M is breast fed, but we have talked about giving her a bottle when she goes to bed around 19:00 (after her bath). This will not be an end to breast feeding for those worrid amongst you just one bottle at this time.

I know from last time there are those amongst you who will scream too early, and I respect you views and you ability to deal with the lack of sleep etc for longer but unfortunately is causing problem with us which I think, if not addressed, will have a more serious impact on M, so please, with respect, keep those views to yourself. I am looking for some positive suggestions as to how best to approach this.

Many thanks

If you only want positive suggestions that agree with you that it is ever OK to leave a 8 week old baby to cry, and that an 8 week old baby can have sleep problems, then I'm afraid you won't get them from me and I'll leave the thread. If you want suggestions about how best to cope with a tiny baby who cries a lot then I'm your woman.

I didn't see your other thread, but would tend to agree with seeker. I can really relate to how awful sleep deprivation makes you feel, and to depression, but don't think 'sleep problems' can be applied to an 8 week old, sorry.

On a practical note - have you heard of Homestart? They are voluntary organisation providing help to families with children under 5, experienced with PND.

hijack.. did you get the books, RC? if you are who i think you are? one was not mean to be sent to you !

i think addressing the issue of your wife possibly having PND again is more important.

8 weeks is too early and there is nothing worng with co sleeping.. that right there could be a painless solution. am sorry if that is not what you want to hear, but a baby who is essentialy 5 weeks old , who is not ready to be parted all night from mum and dad and she is making that known

Like Seeker I cant give you advice about leaving her to cry, but I did have a baby who was very similar and I can sympathise hugely and could make some suggestions about getting through it as it does end! I am typing this because said child is now 16 months and happily asleep in her cot having gone down awake. If you are open to suggestions there will be lots of support, im not sure there will be lots of people with experience of control crying that age. Also I am interested that you are posting not your wife (although possibly she has crying baby to deal with of course) is she up for control crying? I think it is great that you would turn to a forum for advice when you are so worried about her but she isnt really comfortable with leaving the baby to cry you might find she is more stressed by it that she is now. Am now guilty of classic mumsnet sin of appearing on thread when asked not to by OP so will leave..

Oooohhh. I was a very brave first time mummy (DD now 5 months old) and did put my baby down to sleep crying at night time - say 7.30pm.

I would leave her for say 3 mins and if she was still crying I would pick her up. I then stretched it out to 5 minutes. Of couse I eliminated all possibilities eg nappy, hot/cold, wind etc. Never under estimate wind!

From about 12 weeks she went straight to sleep for a good 10 hours or so.

This is a controversial issue and every baby is so very different. Go with what feels right for you and your family. I think I was lucky as she is a good baby and my family is full of Doctors and healthcare professionals.

i think before you go down the crying down route, which will be hugely distressing to you all, you need to see whether your DD has something like reflux which is making your DD harder to settle

most babies are hugely over tired and need a lot less stimulation than you think

a 5 week old baby is NATURALLY going to want to be near to her mum and dad

have you tried a really tight swaddle?

agree with lulu re the co-sleeping as well

Yes I did lulumama - have read one already (and I am who you think I am)

To the OP - that's why I suggested Homestart, trying to think of practical help and support for you and your DP to help you survive (and I think that's what the early weeks and months are about)

I did pick up put down with a very very young baby (born at term and healthy) and it worked very very quickly. I put her down in the cot awake with me sat next to her sushing and patting her after a feed, she cried/screamed I picked her up probably after 20 seconds (perhaps less) cuddled her till she was calm again and repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated until she went to sleep. I did this in the daytimes first. It was sorted within 3 days.

I also approached it from an attitude of teaching it was okay to lie alone in the cot when she was tired. My issue was that if she was cuddled she would sleep through needing a feed!

I have to say 10-20 seconds is long enough to leave them to cry you shouldn't be thinking in terms of minutes IMO

I would have much rather done the whole attachment & co-sleeping parent route but it just didn't work for me, I couldn't sleep with them in the same room as me let along the same bed and I have a bad back & chronic spd so sling wearing was out the window too (I did try though!)

Rather than just leave your DD to "cry down" have you tried the Baby Whisperer shush/pat method? I can't praise this highly enough - my ds was exactly like your dd by the sound of it and wouldn't sleep away from me or Dh.

At 12 weeks we decided that this probably wasn't going to fix itself and tried shush/pat. It won't stop them crying but it does prevent fear of being abandoned which is what you will cause if you leave your DD to cry alone. You simply sit next to them, gently pat their back or shoulder and keep saying "ssssshhhhhhhhh" firmly and consistently. After about 10 minutes ds would conk out. We would always wait until he was well asleep before leaving the room and kept this routine for a good few weeks.

We started during the day because we figured if we fixed daytime naps the nighttime would follow which proved to be correct. Ds has been able to self soothe and settle on his own since about 5 months.

Please, please, please don't leave your dd to cry. You could well end up making sleep issues more entrenched rather than resolving the issue.

People here are not being judgey - controlled crying was never meant to be used on babies as young as yours.

I found that last time everyone was telling me don't do that without making any alternative suggestions, hence my comments. If you have some alternatives to suggestion, I would welcome them.

As far as a swaddle is concerned, we have tried that but she gets upset having her arms restrained and if they are out she managed to kick out of it, which I take to mean that she does not like it. We have also been a bit concerned about her getting too hot in this weather

co-sleeping definitely worth doing. Get a proper bed side rail thing for your peace of mind. I chose to co-sleep and found the most comfy position is lying on your side arm out and baby sort of snuggled against breast or just slightly further away. so baby is between adult and the bedside rail thing. Probably a good idea to sleep under blankets to avoid over heating. If you get your dd snuggled up close to your wife's body facing in to each other then it may be enough comfort and she may be able to feed in that position.

have you tried the pick up put down with the sush pat thing, it really does work but you have to be calm & relaxed and in the right frame of mind to do it IMO. The baby is learning that it is a seperate being and that is okay/ot frightening.

In the meantimes I would do whatever gives you the most sleep and look at PU/PD during the day. I did this bit whilst dh looked after our 3 children - it would be hard to do on your own whilst looking after a toddler.

for the day thing can you afford any kind of childcare for the oldest child? Even if you could afford a nursery for 2 mornings a week it might help your dw to cope a little better

if your baby sleeps on or with you and your DW, then she is dropping you big hints that co sleeping is the way to go!

also, do not expect massive chunks of sleep at this age, her tummy is tiny and needs frequent filling, a couple of hours at a time is about right.. give or take

can you get a cot with one of those sides that drops right down so it goes right next to the mattress of your bed, if you do not want her in with you?

I also want to say clearly if your baby will not lay down for more than a minute without screaming (as opposed to crying) then I would try and get acidic refluxe ruled out - been there done that, it was 6 months of hell where the HV and GP said "a touch of colic"

Yes, after reading lulamama's post I would like to qualify what I suggested - whilst DS could settle himself to sleep pretty well he still woke up twice a night for quite a while! Little tummies needs regular fuel - that's just the way it is.

The alternative is of course co sleeping - is this really not an option for you? We didn't mind it all at night - I just struggled during the day as I couldn't get anything done. That was what prompted us to try and make changes.

Co sleep. Maximum sleep for the most number of people. Honestly - it's the only way to go - anything else is stressful, exhausting, not sure to work and keeps everyone awake anyway.

Another vote here for the Baby whisperer's sshhh patting. We did this with ds when he was 6 weeks old as he had been falling asleep on me or dh up until then and I was worried about gettng into bad habits..

As previous posters have said you never leave them to cry but sit beside them as they are 'crying down' reassuring them that you are there and picking them up if the crying sounds like escalating. It took ds one week of sssh patting to fall asleep on his own and he has been a great sleeper every since (although is an 6am riser but you can't have everything!).

At 6lb 10 your baby is going to need at least 1 or 2 night feeds for quite some time so it would be good if possible to see if your wife has time to express so you could give a bottle of EBM one feed a night or at the weekends to help give her a break.

My dds were in their own room from a very young age (otherwise I couldn't sleep) but I fed them lying down on the single bed (wall then baby then me on the outside) in the babies room so it didn't matter if I feel asleep whilst baby still feeding - the when I got woken again would turn around and feed from the other breast. In summer I slept on top of the quilt with my pj's on and baby just in a nightgown.

I hope these suggestions help, I think it must be very hard having such a tiny baby because they do need such regularly fuelling co-cleeping would cut down the faffing.

I really think that 8 weeks is too young to be left crying (sorry). I'm not saying that you should just deal with holding her either though. i would perhaps focus on other settling methods though. Does she have a dummy? Does she sleep better in an amby cradle or moses basket, sometimes cots are just too big and daunting for small babies. I agree that shushing and patting her for a few night when she wakes may help but have to be honest and admit that it didn't make a bit of difference for us. Basically we just put up with it as he wouldn't take a dummy either. Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear but it will pass. We couldn;t put our baby down at all in the day for about 9 weeks, we just had to walk around with him as he hated to be still. By 10 weeks my ds would sleep happily for 12 hours a night in his moses basket and then his cot from 14 weeks. It is a phase which a lot of them go through, as awful as it is, it will get better.

I know you're worried about your wife. Have you told her your concerns? She really should go to the GP's, it is much better to deal with these things rather than leave it to get worse. You both need support, having a new baby is so much hard work. I only have one but I do sympathise.

I really think that at 8 weeks, so much is going on and everything is still so new to her that she wouldn't learn by crying. Even if she did sleep better, it would only be as she felt abandoned and gave up hope of you being there for her.

It will get better.

re swaddling, I would say that you are perhaps not swaddling correctly if she is able to get her arms out. If you are convinced she likes her arms out you can swaddle with one or both arms out and she can still feel secure. You can swaddle with anything so if you are worried about heat use a giant muslin to swaddle her.

I was always toscared to co-sleep, so I can understand your reluctance to do this.

She is maybe getting overtired at this age her tummy needs refilled lots and she needs to sleep lots. I was rubbish at seeing my DS's sleep clues till about 3mth. But basically every 2 hours they need to sleep. So try putting her down. She maybe nneds to sleep quicker than 2 hours so try putting her down every 1 1/2 see if that helps.

You poor thing, madsinger. It sounds incredibly stressful, as though you're trying to hold it all together for everyone and you're probably not giving any time or attention to your own needs.

Would it help for you to firstly brainstorm every single thing that is a problem at the moment? I have recently been dealing with huge amounts of trauma and stress and found this very helpful as I was then able to isolate each individual problem and create a solution.

Your wife's PND is, as you know, a serious problem. How was it managed with baby no 1? Does she readily accept help/ treatment? I'm assuming not, otherwise you would probably have mentioned this already. It is absolutely vital that she gets proper medical attention and counselling so that she can start to manage her life and her role as a mother and wife. It is just as vital for your well-being as it is for hers.

I feel it's important to add that the 'crying it out' approach was invented by a Dr Ferber (hence the name 'Ferberising'). He has actually been quoted as saying that he has never recommended it for young babies. If you have time, I'd recommend that you try the Baby Whisperer approach (Book: How to Calm, Connect and Communicate with your baby). She outlines a 3-hour system (sleep, then food, then activity, then sleep + you time again - over the course of 3 hours) which is a gentle routine to help establish your baby's body clock and help settle her into life outside the womb.

Others have mentioned her shush/ pick up/ put down method - this is much, much better than leaving your DD to cry for long periods. I cannot overemphasise that if you use the cry it out method at this stage it will likely make things worse - also friends of mine who used it early on found that often they'd have to do it again months later, or sometimes it didn't even work the first time around (after 3 days of hell).

I do hope that things gently start to ease for all four of you.