can an 18month old be deliverately bad?

[Mumie]

My friend has a 18 month old son and I have a 16 month old dd. Since pretty much birth dd hasn't liked him. He's quite rough with her - and other kids as I've seen recently - trying to poke her in the face, pushing her, snatching her toys and even trying to slap her. At first it was only trying to touch her face - a bit roughly - and I thought he was just enthusiatic about seeing other children and wasn't able to control how he showed this, but now I see he does these other things, makes her cry and then grins.

I never leave her for a second when he is around so he might try but never touches her and we don't see much of my friend anymore to avoid the situation. I feel awful but find myself wondering if he is just a mean little boy who likes hurting other children which surely can't be true - he's just a baby?

My dh would like to maintain the friendship but I really don't see how that's possible as I won't put dd through unnecessary upset.

Any ideas on why he's like this? Is it a stage or attention or is it possible that a little kid can really be intentionally bad?

has he ever been shown how to behave ?

Not sure really. He is an only child and goes to day care 1 day per week so he doesn't see much of other kids so maybe not. He has come back from day care covered in scatches - all over his face and arms - because he was fighting with other children.

His folks are nice but dad isn't involved much in the child rearing imo. He plays a bit but doesn't do discipline or feeding or changing or even bathing and he is always sent to granny for babysitting if his mum needs a break, dad never does it. I did think this might be the problem - but I don't know.

Also til recently they thought it was just that dd was very sensitive and delicate. So they wouldn't think they had a reason to show him how to behave. btw dd is in babygruppe 4 days a week with lots of other kids and has no problems with them - which I have pointed out to my friend numerous times.

What does your friend do when he does something to your dd?

imo children that age cant be 'delibratry'(sp?) bad or naughty.he doesnt know right from wrong.and he probably gets a reaction for his actions which we all know toddlers love good or bad!

She always tell him not to do and tells him to apologise, so she is aware but it doens't make a difference - maybe he is too young for such reasoning . Actually last week she did say that she thought sometimes he did it on purpose but she didn't understand why. It's quite difficult but she also gets very upset when it happens.

re. separating him from dd, I am always inbetween - but you are right my friend hasn't been doing this smallwhitecat

my ds1 went through a little hitting stage.the hv said it was because he had speech and language problems and it was his way of communicating

Does your friend remove him from the scene when he does it? I think toddlers this age are learning that they can have an effect on the world - they're not being deliberately nasty but getting a reaction and pushing boundaries.

You can't exactly punish a toddler, and saying sorry doesn't mean anything to them, but if your friend was to pick him up and put him at the other end of the room, saying something like 'that's not nice, you have to play over here unless you can be nice' it might have an effect?

(before I get jumped on, I don't mean in a different room or shutting him in or anything - just moving him away a few metres)

i think he is doing it to get a reaction. He is too young to be malicious. Some children are just rough. My Ds1 always has been. In fact he used to bite at 18 months which was dreadful I used to dread taking him out. He is 3.5 now and much better behaved! Ds2 on the other hand has never had that streak in him. It's just the way some children are. Having said that it's important that his parents are showing him it's not right...!

I will talk to her about it and get her to really say "no" to him and have her take him away instead of me having to move dd. He's the one being "naughty", purposefully or not. I do find anything remotely confrontational really hard though.

To be honest I am just avoiding them right now, which is also difficult because dh also knows the family and wants to see them. We are supposed to invite them for tea or something - we went to their place and it's our turn - but I'm refusing. He thinks we are being rude and that we can keep the kids apart but I don't see why dd should be made to feel upset in her own house.

I have had similar situations when people have brought their kids round and for whateve reason they haven't got on with our kids. I remember when Ds1 was about a year old he continually kissed and hugged our friends DD, who was the same age, she hated it and kept crying. It is just the way kids are...they grow out of it, so don't lose your friendship over something that will probably be an entirely different situation in a few months.

You may just find that after a few more episodes she will start to fend him off. My dd used to get pushed around by a friends son and she has an older brother who is almost 4 and also can be a bit rough, she's now able to defend herself just fine. Infact she is more likely to give my friends son the odd nip now rather than him pushing her. Most kids go thru a phase of some sort of anti social behaviour, nipping, biting, pushing, snatching etc and almost all of them with gentle guidance will grow out it.
I have come across some very placid quiet children but i have found that if they are constantly rescued by mummy they tend to continue being the one who gets pushed rather than sorting it out themselves to some basic extent.
I would hate to think any of my friendships were under jeopardy because my friends baby and my baby had different personalities. You mentioned your friend gets upset about it so she clearly cares. Its just babies being babies, they all have to learn. It will pass.

I have been hoping this would pass for months and it hasn't. He's been like this since about 6 months old and he is now 18 - it's just getting increasingly difficult. I was watching him last Thursday when we saw them and he does seem to think about it before trying to hit dd and has a huge grin if he makes her cry. I think he does it for the reaction - I don't know if he understands it's a bad reaction or not. I had also hoped dd would start to push him back but she just gets upset and runs away from him. I know it's a pity to stop seeing our friends but it's unfair putting dd though what for her is a horrible situation and I need to put her first.

DS does this occasionally (20 mo), along with throwing stuff in a strop, slapping me etc. I do a firm 'no' and move him which seems to work a lot of the time. We've started doing a quick time out if he;s being particularly stroppy, mainly for our sanity!

It is rough on your friend, could you suggest ways of dealing with it?

I think this is a ridiculous topic sorry , he is a baby or course he isn't aware. Stop being so judgemental. Most kids go through this usually a bit later. Even your DD - maybe when she's about 2 though and then you might have an idea what your friend is having to deal with.

I do think that a 18mth old can deliberately hurt another child, but I do not think that they really understand and empathise with the feelings that the other child has.

Making him say sorry is no use, unless he understands why he is saying sorry. It is just a word, learned by heart and repeated to that mama feels better. My DS used to hit his sister, say sorry then hit her again. Until they can truly understand the consequences of their actions then there is no point in making them say sorry, like a parrot.

You need to speak to your friend, tell her that you want to keep in touch but that you cannot allow your DD to be upset by her DS. She has to move him away from your DD when he hits her, and if need be go home early from the playgroup.

Are you in Germany, btw?

Close - we're in Switzerland Kindersurprise. And I agree with what you and most people have said that I need to talk to my friend - just avoiding it as I think it will be difficult. Has to be done tho.

alice123 - it may be ridiculous to you, but it's my dd that's getting hurt and that is very hard for me.

As others have said, as far as I understand it an 18mo really doesn't understand actions/consequences good/bad or empathy.

These are all developmentally some way in the future. The fact that your friend 'gets upset' by her ds's actions to me spoke volumes. Children are mini scientists and will repeat the same action again and again if the reaction they get 'interests' .
The litle boy really does not understand that your DD is being hurt upset.

Please try to stick by your friend, it sounds like she is trying really hard and the last thing her or her son needs is fr him to be labelled as 'bad' this early in his little life.

That said, obviously she needs to intervene straight away with a firm 'NO' and removal to other (more boring) area of the room each and every time her DS does this. If she can appear really calm and unflustered rather than upset she may find her DS loses interest in this.

My Ds has recently gone through a very trying period of hitting slapping myself and DP in the face, every time he did this we said 'NO- that HURTS Mummy/Daddy' then removed him from us and did not give him attention for a few minutes. It tok a few weeks but he has forgotten all abut this phase now (thankfully!)

I know that you're upset by your child being hurt but if you value your friendship and realise that the situation may well be reversed in a few months the only thing you can do is more closely supervise the children - not distance yourself from your friend who is probably really struggling.

She needs to be told that there is nothing wrong with her child and that they will probably all go through this at some stage or another.