It's 8.40pm here and 3yr old still messing about...

[bergentulip]

What would you do? I am sitting in the study because my darling DS1 is, an hour and forty minutes after first putting him in bed, shouting for me, banging on his door, waking up DS2(5mths), generally being a nuisance.

My tactics of being stern, angry, firm, not talking to him, just putting him back in bed, are just being met with laughter and smiles..... ...
What do I dooooooo???? Need advice, because at the moment I feel angry and shouty and it will not help!!!

I have resorted to putting 5mth old on my bed so he at least is in a quiet-ish room. This has been getting gradually worse over the last couple of weeks, I suppose really since it started being light at 7pm..... heeeellllpppp.....

Last night things went much better. 5mth old was laid on our bed from the get-go. Not ideal, but he was not disturbed.
Books etc.... in 3yr old's bed, no distractions, had his milk, his cloth, his teddy all there.
When we'd finished reading, told him to lie down, close eyes etc... adn I stayed with him and made sure his eyes stayed closed. Held his hand.
He was quiet by 7.30, so much sooner

It was by no means a completely fuss free process, so still- Areas still to be improved on by me, and thus cut this down again -
don't get the second beaker of milk, don't indulge his in&out of bed yo-yo routine for even 15minutes, and when I say 'you get out of bed one more time, then the light goes straight off and I go downstairs', bloody mean it. Finally, must not let myself get all wound up inside and feel so furious.

I don't think I showed how tense I was inside, but still, there really is no reason to get so worked up- so I tell myself. Also, I just wonder how long this will have to go on for, because me and DH eat about 1/2hr after children in bed, therefore I (on weekdays cos don't work) cannot cook the dinner til 1/2 an hour later, and that's just annoying.
It'll mean DH has to cook, and I can see that getting tiring for him after a full day at the office.

That's great that he settled earlier
It will last as long as it lasts. We consider these things as being "that's the way things are at the moment" and then over time you realise things have changed and you are not needed as much.
As regards your dinner, can't you cook it earlier in the day and warm it up once the children are in bed? Crock pot meals, that sort of thing. Why do you have your meal after they've gone to bed? Would it be possible to eat earlier and include your 3yo?

When my DD2 was going through this at age 3 i used to save all my laundry/toys/clutter that needed putting away & pootle in & out of her room putting things away & repeating "bed-time now night night " if I left the room she'd shout for me.& I could tell her I was just putting stuff away in my room & then come back to hers before she'd got up & stay there -no chat. That way I stretched the time I was out of her room till she was used to me being around but not WITH her & gradually the natural tiredness took over. Bit of a palaver but it kept us both calm & got a boring job done so it worked for us!!

I would certainly consider doing more meals that can just be heated up once DS sorted and asleep. Of course, not the greatest as the summer approaches, but getting pieces of fish wrapped up to steam with herbs etc.... in the afternoon if pretty easy, that sort of thing. Have the pots peeled in water already, stuff diced and sliced. That I can definitely do.

I woudl definitely be reluctant to have dinner earlier. DH gets home at 6pmish, technically it could be done. But, he and I really enjoy and use 'our evening' for a quiet meal together, no tellie, we catch up, talk, behave like a couple. I don't want to lose that as I think it's very important that we still have a relationship. If that makes sense.

We do eat together as a family at the weekends, and I'll always have lunch at the table with DS1, so there's enough sociable meals going on. Just not at the expense of another nice part of the day

I just have to arrange the prep time better I think, and just 'suck it up' and accept it may not be as quick an exit downstairs for the time being...

I don't think pootling about would work with mine unfortunately. He's too easily distracted, and the smallest thing has him sitting up and wanting to chat. Good idea though... maybe in a few weeks as I try and edge slowly away from the hand holding...

Just wanted to add support and say we are having a similar problem with our 3.10 year old DS. We also have a 7month old DS2. We put a lot of behavioural 'challenges' from DS1 down to DS2' arrival. The effects go on for a long time I think. We also have issues with daylight here in Spain whcih don't help! Has been takeing hours to get DS1 to sleep but as you say, when he is ready, he goes off quickly - unfortantely it seems that. for the moment at least, we need to be with him.

ds is also 3 and at that needs a nap/doesn't need a nap stage. I'm finding that a 30 min cat nap is enough to see him through till bedtime but no further, and if he hasn't taken it by 3.30 I don't let him sleep as it then messes up bedtime.
Bedtime is 7.30 and we have a long wind down routine: 7.00 milk/biscuits and 2 or 3 episodes of current favourite cartoon (Little Robots at the moment, Fireman Sam last week)however many to take up about 15 mins.
Then straight up to bathroom, dunk in bath/teeth/etc, jimjams on.
2 stories: first one sitting in chair, 2nd one lying down in bed. If still awake he gets one more story, but a nightnight/go to sleep type story.
Then light out and if he's fidgety I'll stay with him and hold his hand or cuddle him for a while till he falls asleep. At this point whatever happens we don't leave his room.

Bit rambly - point is, we have a series of events that can in no way be mistaken for anything other than leading up to bedtime! Now that we've got the acceptance of bedtime on the way to being sorted, the problem is more about leaving him at the end of stories as he can't settle easily by himself, but I am very happy to hold hands or cuddle if he wants to as this helps him go off in about 10 mins. Could that help, staying with him? Would he settle if you did? If ds starts trying to get out of bed I say I'll need to go downstairs until he's lying down again and because he wants me to stay he lies down.

Also, Elisabeth Pantley has a No Cry Sleep Solution for toddlers - might be worth a read, it helped us loads.

sympathies! x

oh, and blackout blinds help a LOT !

Total sympathy - this stage lasted ages with my DD now 5, and DS 3 (nearly 4) only just coming out of it.
Funnily enough, we go for a "tulip walk" (v appropriate for Holland) to wake him up - which is code for being whisked out into the garden to look at all the flowers whether he likes it or not. Works best when it's cold/windy/raining - not sure about this hot weather.
Cold flannel on face also works a little.
Otherwise go for early induced sleep in car - yes - 11am good - but get home after 30 mins then wake him up, with the above if necessary.

Sorry, didn't explain, I meant when he's falling asleep at 4 - 5pm, wake him up with walk in garden, flannel, etc.

I agree with onwardandupward, and was going to suggest sitting woth him until he falls asleep. I think bedtime hokey-cokey (in out in out.....) is all about attention, and unlike most people I don't see attention seeking as a bad thing, it's normal!! He wants you to soothe him off to sleep, and at three he's still just a little one really.

I do know how hard this can be, there is nearly three years between my two and it's hard to juggle them at bedtime, but as long as you are flexible and don't get hung up on the time I find it can be done.

He is at that "almost don't need a nap but not quite" stage and it's not easy, but like all transitions it will pass and whilst it is disruptive at the time it will get better, I promise!!!

Monkies

I have had a similar problem with my DD. It started last summer when she was 2.5. We eventually managed to phase out her naps which definitely helped. She still occasionally has a nap and that is when she is most likely to play up when it is time for bed. We don't have a strict bedtime but if she has a nap, she goes to bed later, then more is likley to nap again the next day. There are loads of really good tips here already but be reassured that this is just another phase and he will grow out of it if you are consistent with your approach. My DD loves books and if she is not ready for sleeping, but it is well past her bedtime then we allow her to 'read' to herself in bed. We usually limit the books/time she is allowed and this has really helped and now she often settles down to sleep by herself. When she really plays up, we just keep returning her to bed with no talking or eye contact and we have found that this is definitely the best method - it can take a while and you need to be really consistent but it does work with our DD. Good Luck.

I found what helped is to absolutely knacker them out during the day so they are practically begging to go to sleep!

Playground, 10 mile hike, trampoline, whatever they like/enjoy and exhausts them.

Personally, I found that by focusing on the evening routine wasn't the problem and if she was tired, nothing would stop her from going to sleep.

So glad to read this thread as we are having the same problem with ds (3:5) and have an 8 month baby!

Ds had been saying he didn't like being left alone, so we gave him a story CD. This has helped in that he is now happy to stay in his room with it, BUT he seems stimulated by it and is in and out of bed to change CD /track etc etc. I know he isn't putting himself to sleep when he is tired cos he wakes later than usual and is grumpy.

Am thinking of having a time limit and star chart from tonight. I think that going in and just firmly putting him to bed would just result in him gettin more and more upset and unhappy to be left alone (he does have night light).

That's our experience to date for what its worth.

Hope all our little ones are going sleep more reliably soon, so we can have our evenings back!

Hello

Have you tried massage?

I have a 2 and a 4 year old - both are going through a phase of being a bit bonkers at night (sure it is the light nights). The only thing that is soothing them is a back massage and gentle song. Takes a while but far less than all the going in and out if I don't do it.

I'm just hoping when they're older they might do the same for me ...

Hello bergentulip,

It sounds like you've found your own way through this already but I have to admit that I'm a big fan of the 'Supernanny' approach which has worked like a dream for us (a) first time round and (b) after illness meant DD's nighttime routine went completely to pot.

We did all the usual bath, milk and story business, then put her to bed and left. When she got up, we put her back to bed with a 'night night'. When she got up again, we put her back to bed with no talking or eye contact. I then sat still in the doorway, and each time she got out of bed, I calmly put her back - still with no talking or eye contact.

This was really hard the first night, when she tried everything ("Want poo Mummy!" "Want milk Mummy", screaming, crying, flailing arms, etc) to get my attention. But eventually (after maybe 45 minutes?) she got bored and fell asleep. I suspect an older child would take more effort (DD is coming up for 2).

The second night was easier and didn't last as long (and was also helped by the fact that I remembered to bring a crossword and drink with me so I didn't get as bored and thirsty during the between-tantrum intervals!)

On the fourth night, she went straight to sleep when we turned the lights out, and continued to do from then on. What bliss!

After she was ill (when she had genuine reasons for wanting attention after bedtime), she continued playing up for a few nights until we did the same thing again. That time it took much less effort - probably because she knew that we meant business. Less than 20 mins the first night, five mins the second, then back to normal.

Now, she goes straight to sleep and if she's really tired will lie down and say "Night night Mummy/Daddy" without prompting - sometimes even before her story!

Now if I could just persuade DH to stay awake a bit later we might actually manage to get some 'us' time...!

Poor you i dont think i have had a full nights sleep for about nearly 8 years!!!
At nap time try to cut it shorter by about 10 mins every day till he's only taking about 20mins and it will be like a power nap.
With all the "i need...." things have you tried the shops are shut,the taps are off to sleep ther is no water left, there is no milk we have to wait for the milkman, i have even had are ther any juicy grapes at 4 in the moring neddless to say there were none .
Have you tried before teatime to try and run the legs off him, while you are making the tea how many times can he run round the garden, pram or whatever try and burn up excess energy anything you can think of then after tea it's drawing pictures, reading stories and quiet down time. Good luck, i have almost had 2 nights with nearly 6 hours undisturbed sleep but i dont want to say it out loud incase it doesn't happen again

This is a really helpful thread, have been having bedtime battles with my 2 year old dd.

Just wanted to add, the other thing I have found really helpful is white noise (we have a cd). We used it a lot when dd was a baby and it really helps send her off. After her milk I take her into her really dark room, put the white noise on and tell her a story which I make up. Normally she is so trance like she drifts off. Normally .