MN PLEASE HELP! Don't know what to do with DD! There MUST be an answer!

[chankins]

Honestly, please, what would you do with this child ?
I am at the end of my tether and will be ringing the HV for advice if no one has a magic answer for me !
Don't want to do that because I would feel like a failure.
Okay, problem is : dd turned 4 last week, and regularly poos and wees herself. She was potty trained easily at 2 ys, 3 mo, and then regressed, got lazy etc. Since then its been an endless battle and I can't cope with it anymore. She wees on the sofa, she wees on my lap, she poos in her room. she'll say she won't do it anymore, and can be quite good for a few days, but then its back to square one.
We have ruled out a medical problem as she CAN do it, and is fine at nursery, at friends houses, at toddler groups etc, and when we were on holiday over easter.
We have tried ignoring, sticker charts, taking stuff away, everything, including getting really angry, which was last night.
She had pood in her room, then after we had talked to her about why this is not on, she sat and weed on my lap.
I can cope with her wetting her pants, especially if she at least tries to get to loo, but its the blatant sitting on the sofa, or lap, or floor and just peeing all over it. She laughs when you get cross, and she did not care that I took all her birthday presents away from her last night because I was s cross. Today she told me she did not mind I'd taken themm!
Been trying to give them back to her all day by saying she can have one back each time she goes to toilet.
Really, I know none of you will have the answer, as no one else does, but what would you do ?
Get cross because its naughty ?
Or go to Hv because its obviously behavioural ?
PLease any suggestions, any advice, any psychologists out there ? I CANNOT understand why she does this !

I feel for you - I really do. This does seem to be a behavioural issue, so try your HV and see if she can refer you for support. Your continence advisor may be able to help although I suspect your CAMHS service would be more appropriate. Sorry I couldn't be more help but hope the situation resolves itself.

Thankyou for replying honeybrown.
I didn't really expect anyone to have the answer, I know its been done on here many times !
O well, the hv it is then...

firstly, do take her to the GP and get her checked out.
UTIs can cause wetting
and constipation can cause poo-ing, because you get a blockage, and then poo seeps round that and you can't help it coming out.
this in turn may be caused by a food intolerance/allergy.

I wouldn't get cross at her. is there any reason you can think of that she may be needing more attention from you at the moment? new sibling? house move? new nurserty? has anything changed that might be related to this problem?
do you think you spend enough quality time with her?

I think children sometimes crave attention so much that they will do anything to get it. this doesn't make their need for you to be there with them any less, and certainly doesn't mean it should be ignored just because she is using a "naughty" technique to get your attention either.

erm, am going to have a think as to how I would deal with it though and get back to you

O thankyou for replying thisisyesterday, very kind of you.
I do think it must be an attention thing, but this confuses me even more, as I feel she has lots of attention.
She is midddle child with a sister nineteen months older, and a brother who is 11 months now.
I can't blame it on him coming along because she was just as bad before he was born, and at that time she was not at nursery so was with me twnety-four seven.
She only started nursery in september, aged 3 and 5 mo, and this was only mornings to start with.
At the mo she is with me all day mon and tues, goes nursery all day wed and thurs, and only til half eleven on fri.
I keep thinking I'll try sending her less to see if that helps.
I am a cm, but I only work about fourteen hours a week and she adores the little girl I mind.
I love her so much, am always cuddling and kissing her, even though she is not as affectionate as my other two, and does not come to me for them. I really don't see how I could give her any more attention, but maybe I am wrong. Tbh she is an odd little character and she really worries me at the moment. If only she knew how much I loved her! Sorry long,

hmm ok, I think what I would do in your shoes is this (and bear in mind this probably won't be an immediate solution, it'll take time)

assuming it is something she is controlling, and not a medical issue.

sit down with her at a time when you aren't cross and when she hasn't just had an accident.
talk to her about going to the toilet- ASK her questions- how she feels about using the loo by herself, and wait for her to reply, try not to put words into her mouth. see if there is any reason why she doesn't want to use the toilet.

ask her if there is anything you could do to make it easier for her to go. ie, leaving a light on, toilet seat up, a stool there.
get her to think of ideas as well.

explain how it makes you feel when she has an "accident". don't accuse her of doing it on purpose even if that's how you feel. give her the benefit of the doubt, even if that's hard to do.
then ask her how it makes her feel and again, wait for her to come up with an answer.
ask her how she feels when you get cross with her for doing it, and think of some ways you can both deal with it when it happens.

you need to talk about things like the fact that you feel like you can't have her on your lap in case she wee's and that makes you feel sad because you want to hold her.

not a psychologist and not had experience of this (so probably completely useless answer coming up )

I would certainly take her to the GP in the first instance so they can rule out anything physical.

If it's behavioural, then honestly I think complete stony silence and ignoring is the way to deal with it. NO attention whatsoever; clean up absolutely silently then just move on.

I know this is really hard. What you describe sounds absolutely maddening and really hard to put up with.

But I just think ignoring and seeming not to care in the slightest might just freeze her out a bit; she seems to like the attention she gets for it (laughing when you're cross, not minding about toys)

In completely ignoring it, you're taking the power out of it for her.

LOL at two completely different approaches from me and thisis

Actually I think combining the two would perhaps be great; have that talk with her (agree about really waiting for her answers rather than saying what you think she will say) and then just give it a try, but try the ignoring if it happens again in the hopes that she will get the message there's more good attention to be had when she's not doing this

Thanks again, I have tried most of that though, she is very unwilling to talk about it, and all I can ever get out of her is that she can't get there on time, and she will do it the next time. There is a stool for her and seat if she wants them, I try having the potty down here so she really has no excuse, and that worked for a day or so and then back to sqaure one. Still weeing on sofa when potty is right next to her feet! When she did go to loo tonight, I told her how nice it was that we weren't cross with eachother, and that I didn't like being cross with her, how proud I was, thankful etc, how clever she was, ; we always pay loads of attention and praise when she does go, even if pants are a bit wet. I tell her I don't mind wet pants if she tries to get there, its all over the furniture etc I can't stand. I just find it so odd that she would wee on me !I have overheard her older sister asking her why she does it, and she kept saying I can't do it, I can't do it, which totally broke my heart to hear.
However, she CAN do it. She knows when she needs one, she knows how to get there, etc, I have said I'll go with her, I'll pick her up and carry her if she wants 1
It all always end up back to square one, which is what I find so depressing and frustrating.
She is much more babyish than her sister was at this age, but I know not to compare them, they are very very different.
I just feel like giving up !

Thankyou also honoriaglossop, it is nice in a way to get this all off my chest ! Even though I know there is no real answer.
Have had long phases of completely ignoring her, and it has not worked either. Then eventually I just explode, I can't help it, it drives me insane, the whole house stinks of wee. I love her so much yet I feel like sending her to someone else to live for a while, but I would never never do this, or even say it, but that is how I feel, and I hate feeling like that about her.

chankins, I totally understand you feeling that way. Don't feel bad about feeling like that; just reading about it makes me feel grossed out, so living with it for ages must be trying the patience of a saint

This is probably an AWFUL idea, but have you considered going back to pull ups?

ahh well you see Honoria I have been reading unconditional parenting lol, and actually trying it out with ds with remarkable results, but that's probably a whole other thread!

I think perhaps you have to assume that she really can't do it. I mean, why would she lie? and especially to her big sister?

what about trying a timer? and when the bell rings you have a race to the toilet and she sits on it.
she doens't have to do anything, it's just a race, and a sit on. don't praise if she does a wee, because then she feels pressured to do it every time
and don't get cross if she doesn't.

unconditional parenting eh

Honoria - I never used pull-ups, she went from nappies to pants at the time, took longr for nights obviously.
I have said calmly to her does she want to wear a nappy again (maybe should say pull-up but basically same thing aren't they ?) and she says no adamantly, I have also threatened this in anger, saying the accidents can't go on so nappies it must be. I know that sounds terrible.
I think the whole thing has grown into this huge huge nightmare for both of us, I just don't know how to stop it.
I think I must finally ask for help, do you think gp is better than hv in this situation then ?
I habe put it off for too long and I don't want this to permenantly affect our relationship, as I fear it could do.
I don't know if she lies thisisyesterday, it msytfies me, because she was so upset saying that to her sister, but then in certain situations she will suddenly say 'I need the loo' and off she trots. So she can do it !
I have thought of trying to sit her on the loo every hour, whether she needs one or not, saying I am just 'checking because we don't want wee wee on the sofa do we?@
Arghhhh it s nightmare

actually I don't think that pull-ups is an awful idea either.
you could say to her that if she really can't do it, then would she like to wear pull-ups for a while until she feels she can manage

hmm so I wonder if there is something different about those times when she does go willingly?

have you noticed anything? I mean, is it usually in a situation where you're all playing together? or is it when you're unavailable (cooking dinner etc)? is there a common theme is what I am wondering, that you could build on?

I think you're right that it's probably become a huge "thing" for you both. hmmm. it's hard isn't it? I do really feel for you.
Perhaps you need to work on the "i love you regardless of how you behave" thing. so, if she has an accident, don't make a big deal, clean her up and then go and do something nice with her (not OTT nice, just you know, find a puzzle, read a book etc) and again, if she does go to the loo then just treat it as normal- it's possible that too much praise may be making her feel scared because she feels she has to do it "right" every time to win your attention???

Thats interesting actually - she is one of these kids that does not like things being ott, for example at christmas this year she kept saying there were too many presents, and we don't need anymore presents ! And then proceeded to behave quite badly.

She did the same at easter, and did not eat any of her eggs, except a few little ones. Maybe too much attention/praise/excitment freaks her a bit ? I don't know.

The times she goes willingly are most often at friends/families homes/toddler groups and nursery, also when on holiday she was great and only had one accident in four days. However she does often still wet/poo at all these places, it is just not as bad.

Tbh the factor which seems to make her worse is me ! Maybe I have tried so many different approaches/tactics with her that it has resulted in even more stress over it.

I know I should back down and back off, but when I have done this (and it is bloody hard not to go mad when a kid wees all over you!) it has still had no results.
Thanks again for sticking with me here ladies, like I said, it is good to get it off my chest and interesting to hear your theories.

I think the pulls ups or ignoring completely sound like the best things to try.

Another thing that may work is if you involve her in cleaning up any mess? Tell her that the more accidents there are, the less time there is to play? Or is that just emotional blackmail...

I can only tell you what worked for a friend of mine who also had this problem: taking off the pressure, very calm (almost non) response to accidents -oh dear, poor you, go get changed then - basically as little attention as was possible to give and no dropping things immediately to to sort her dd out.

Obviously the calm was an act but prior to this strategy she'd tried everything (star charts, punishment, reminders etc) and things had just got worse and worse.

Took a couple of weeks to see an improvement and a couple of months for the problem to be totally solved but it did work.

suzi2 I have tried this too, actually most of the time I make her put her wet clothes in the sink, wipe over chairs or floor etc, she'll cry about it sometimes and other times not bat an eyelid.#

wb I know this is what I need to do, and have tried it lots, but maybe I haven't been patient enough. Maybe if I expect it to take months rather than weeks, I will be able to stay calm and ignore for longer.

I suppose the thing that gets to me the most is wondering if she does it on purpose to me, as it often seems this way, which leads me to feel very insecure about her love and connection to me ! Silly, I know, but like I said earlier she is not a great one for cuddles and kisses, sometimes stares at me icily if I ask for one ! She sometimes does very naughty things all of a sudden for no reason, and then just stares at you when you get cross, or seem surprised ! She is not that talkative either, she won't really have long chats or conversations with me, although her speech is fine, she just doesn't seem to want to engage this time with me.

all these things make me love her even more and I feel fiercrly protective of her as she is very skinny and tiny for her age, can still wear 18 mo to 2 yrs trousers ! I guess I feel she's still my little baby, even though I have another one now.

Maybe I am confusing her, who knows..

Please don't make her clear up the mess.
Chankins you sound similar to how I felt with my dd. Similar to your dd except that she didn't toilet train at all. We didn't know what to do and took her to the gp for advice. She was referred to the hospital and diagnosed with constipation. The compaction was high up in her bowel and the result was that she didn't always know when she needed to go and when she did know, she would hold on as long as she could. Poo seeped around the blockage and came out either normal looking or as though she had diahroea. To say I was surprised that she was constipated would be an understatement. She has since been on Movicol for the last 3/4 years.
She was genuinely distressed about it all but even at 4 she pretended she didn't care.
See the GP about it and if nothing else rule this out. I think it can affect bladder control, too, although not in our dd case.
If you do a search on encopresis you will find more information on this.

Thisis - I think Alfie Kohn is great

I didn't make it clear - when dd knew she wanted to go, she held on as long as she could because it was painful to go.

Thankyou so much juuule - it is well worth me taking her to gp then. I am so glad I posted now, because I have been putting off getting any help, but your reply has decided it for me.
O I feel so guilty now though, poor thing! I will feel so bad if it does turn out to be medical. Thanks ladies, I didn't think anyone would reply to my post because I am sure it has been done to death !

I don't doubt at all that you love her- the very fact that you've put up with this, and that you want to help her tells me that you love her immensely.

but does SHE know this? It's so easy for us to think "but I love X", and yet perhaps, they can't see that? it isn't enough to love our children, they have to know we love them.
do you see what I mean?

she sounds like she's quite sensitive, so def think the backing off thing will work, but yes, give it plenty of time. you won't necessarily see her suddenly become totally reliable within a few weeks- but keep going with it.
and keep letting her know that you love her, no matter what. that way she won't need to use things like this to get attention.
Perhaps the confused looks you're getting are because she knows what she has done is wrong, and yet she is still getting the attention? or because she just doens't know exactly what it is that she wants?

oh juuule, so nice to see someone else with the same thoughts lol
and yes, was a bit unsure of kohns stuff to start with, but am a real convert now.

I do tell her all the time how much I love her, I do with all my dc, I'm a soppy sort of mum tbh. I would kiss and cuddle them and chat to them all day if I could. But I see what you mean, she may not totally understand this.
I think now I realise how much I must have confused her with all my different responses. Maybe if I had stuck with one for longer, it would have worked eventually !
But will be ringing gp in morn to rule out anything medical first. And I feel now that I will be much calmer about it tomorrow, because this has helped me realise a lot.