How much obedience to expect from a 2.5 years-old toddler ?

[Funkid]

Dear mums,

I pose myself the question of how much we can expect from a toddler. My wife and I are having fights over this. On some points she has higher expectations than me on our 2.5 years-old daughter, on some others it seems to be less. I try to give 3 concrete examples below :

1. We prepare for the bike ride. My wife asks our daughter to put on her shoes. Our daughter takes a seat in the bike trailer without her shoes. My wife gets angry over it. Me I would have asked my daughter indeed to put on her shoes, and if she didn’t do it I would have taken the shoes and put them on to her without feeling frustrated about it. I don’t expect so much of her.

2. Our daughter plays with a cupboard door in the kitchen. It makes noise and our baby (6 months-old) is sleeping in the adjacent room. Our daughter doesn’t stop despite being asked so, and she even laughs and teases us. My wife puts herself in front of the cupboard, but our daughter stills manages to catch and pull the handle of the door. My wife gets angry and pulls the kid away. Me in that situation I would have let my daughter play with the door while monitoring the way it closes to avoid noise. My humble experience tells me that my daughter would have given up the game fast enough. If not then I would have pulled her away, as my wife did, but without getting angry about it. Because I find that this “misbehavior” and this intentional teasing is normal toddler behavior. There again my expectations towards our daughter are lower than my wife’s.

3. We’re in a public transport, and our daughter pushes with her feet the seat in front of her. I look ahead and there is no one sitting in the seat in front, so I don’t mind her play. My wife does. Her argument is that we need to teach her to never play with the seat ahead because we cannot teach her that it’s not ok to play when someone is seated there but ok otherwise. Me I feel that our daughter can understand the distinction. In this example my wife’s expectations towards our daughter are actually lower than mine J.

If I may add a few side comments :
· My wife is the main caregiver for both our kids. She has to deal for instance with our toddler’s recurring tantrums and refusals to obey. Not me. So it’s much easier for me to stay cool when our daughter doesn’t obey. I have quite some understanding for my wife’s lower patience for that. For her it’s tougher.
· My wife is very protective of our 6 months-old baby. For instance of his sleep. And so she is in a constant fight with our daughter for her to be quiet while our baby is sleeping. All teeth out :-).
· My wife suffers from this feeling that she is in a constant fight with her daughter. And she does love her without limit :-).
· My wife criticizes me for being too lenient with our daughter. In our arguments we really are each other’s mirror.

If you have any feedback I would be very glad to read you. Thank you so much.

I would fall somewhere in between the two of you (for context, I have a two year old and a four year old). It's normal two year old behaviour, and as adults, we shouldn't generally be getting angry about it, but I'd be guiding her towards the behaviour you want a bit more than you seem to be.

1. Shoes: I'd ask her again to get her shoes please, probably quite lightly, 'Silly DD, did you forget something? Oh, yes, we need shoes to go out. Can you get them and put them on please?' If I thought she was ignoring me, I might follow up with a calm, but clear 'DD, get your shoes please', and then, yes, if necessary, I'd do it for her. You don't want to give her the idea that instructions like 'please put your shoes on' are optional.
2. Noise at nap time: Oh, it's hard when baby is noise-sensitive and you have a toddler. Changing her game so it isn't too noisy is a good solution, but you need to start with that if that's the way you want to go. It's no good telling her to stop it, stop it again, and then when she doesn't listen, saying 'well, actually you can do it like this instead' – you'd be teaching her not to listen in hopes of a better offer. Also, how confident are you that you could have kept the closing quiet, and who would have had to resettle baby or deal with him being grumpy if he woke up?
3. I'm actually with neither of you here – for me, the bottoms of shoes get dirty and they don't belong on seats, even the backs of seats. More broadly, this depends on your toddler. Some do fine with this sort of distinction, and others still need simpler rules.

In the bigger picture, it sounds like your wife is struggling a bit. How much of the parenting do you do when you are present, particularly the difficult bits when your daughter is resisting? Could you do more? If you've been with small children all day, it can be a relief to clean up the kitchen in peace whilst your partner does bedtime – you're both working for the good of the family, but the change helps. Does she regularly get time to do something for her, without the children (sport, hobby, meet friends, read a book, whatever)? Does she get time alone with your daughter, without baby, just to do something fun?

It just depends on the kid. Some 2.5 year olds are capable of following instructions, others aren't.

• Shoes - I guess if your wife knows your child is capable of putting on their own shoes and maybe usually does (?) when you're not there (?) I imagine it would be annoying if child suddenly won't do a thing they usually do no questions asked as soon as dad is around as they know dad will do it for them
• The door example is a nice one. You're obviously recognising when your child is doing something just for attention and it's best to ignore rather than rising to the bait. Took me years to learn and takes the heat out of so many situations.
• Kicking seat example... I think a 2.5 year old can know the difference between kicking a seat on its own or kicking a seat with a person in.

In general I would be more on your side of the fence in these discussions... little kids aren't robots and if sometimes they don't do exactly as they're told every time it's because they are testing boundaries. The first thing to do is teach them about the boundaries, why we have the boundaries etc, before getting cross.

You sound like nice parents! Having two under three is really hard. It gets easier, and for your relationship it's tough. I also remember being like a tiger in my defensiveness of my baby and often forgot the older one was also just a baby himself.

My almost 2 year old grandson does what he wants and his mother lets him,she not happy when I step in and tell him to stop doing things like pulling cat tail,grabbing the dog, hitting other kids outside,climbing everywhere and trying to destroy toys to name a few. Good luck!

So I'm guessing your out working... Forgive me if I'm wrong... I'm guessing that's the case as you said she is the one who oversee the children..

I have the same problem... My other half works full time and I appreciate that so much I can't explain...

However when he is at work my daughter who is a beautiful 8 year old non verbal autistic girl... Needs structural routine.... Completely different to your situation but the STRUCTURE is the same..

Your wife sets boundaries to your child... But yet when daddy comes home or is home what she has tried to set in place goes out the window... Her frustration isn't at the child at this point it's at you... Everything you do she has a criticism for right???

You both need to figure out a plan that you can both agree with and STICK TO IT...

Kids need STRUCTURE and routine.. if mummy says one thing dad says another.. you have 1 confused child xx

I’d suggest that you get a child fastening for the kitchen cupboard so she can’t play with them. She shouldn’t really have access to them anyway. The baby needs to get used to the noise to be honest. I had a 3 year old when I had my second baby. It was bliss for the baby when the toddler was at nursery and she would nap better. But when we were all home the toddler would prod and poke the baby unless she was given something else to do. Maybe find something quiet for the toddler to be busy with whilst the baby naps. But napping when it’s noisy can be be helpful for future when you go on holiday etc and need them to sleep when it’s not dark and silent.

Kicking the chair in front. No. Never. I don’t believe a toddler can tell when it’s appropriate and when not. - well now never appropriate though - but the difference between an empty seat in front and a passenger. It’s a blank no for me. Again, she needs to be given something to keep her busy on the transport so that she’s not kicking for attending or to keep busy.

The shoes thing. Hmm. You need to set up consistency with routines otherwise they’ll always expect you to dress them. 2.5 year old won’t be long at nursery now where they will be taking shoes on and off and will be supported to do this independently. But small instructions. Not go and get your shoes and put them on all in one sentence. Break the instructions up. Go and get me your shoes please. Even make it a game. Set a timer. Can you get the em before it do?? Once shoes in hand then please could you put your shoes on your feet. If they need help then help. Or compromise you do one and I’ll do the other if they are indeed struggling. Then anything else we need before getting on the bike? What’s the weather like? Have we got our coat? Etc. but on thing at a time. Asking a child to do something then just doing it for them when they don’t engage isn’t really teaching them the routine. But it will take time.

I’d say aim expectations high. Even if they don’t meet them all first time. Still expect the best. Support and praise when they do their stages right. But they can soon learn they don’t have to do things if someone else will do it for them.

It is completely normal, my three year old is a menace, and I understand your wives frustration as I also have a 7 month old. She’s tired so has shorter fuse which is normal, I’m guessing she will be with the kids all day and probably had to deal with daughters behaviour on repeat all day which is hard. My baby is so difficult to get to sleep and when I do eventually get him to sleep my 3 year old usually wakes him up and it can be so difficult to manage my emotions when I just want to cry in that moment. Under slept and over stimulated is probably the route of her anger. Having said that I do think maybe you should be a little more firm, the banging door situation is annoying me even thinking about it. if you can see your wife getting worked up then step in and try and defuse the situation before she gets to the absolutely raging point I’m not saying you don’t do that already, you seem like a great husband seeking advice to try and understand more. Us woman with babies and toddlers are on the verge of insanity though so we need a little more grace 🤷🏻‍♀️🤣 but she is no doubt beating herself up every time she loses it too. Toddlers test us beyond belief.

You and your wife sound like me and my DH. Id say your wife is probably struggling deep down more than shes letting on. I absolutely hate my baby's nap being interrupted so id be cutting the cupboard banging immediately. She's doing it to test boundaries but rather than being angry I would try to distract with something more fun. I certainly wouldn't let her continue whilst monitoring the noise because she's being taught I can basically do what I want and daddy will be there to take the heat off.
Kicking a seat on public transport is an absolute no from me. First off I dont believe she's old enough yet to know the difference between when someone is there its not ok. Its also just disrespectful in my opinion.
Im the main caregiver to our twins and can say that by 4pm im so overstimulated and on some days can be ready to explode. So I can sympathise with the overreacting. You paint yourself as the cool calm one but put yourself in your wife's shoes and how you might feel after a hard day with toddler and baby, and do that over and over again whilst your DH is undermining your rules. Please try to get more on board with how she's doing things. Im not saying it needs to be stricter or being angry with DD as thats not ok. But boundaries need setting from an early age and it sounds like your wife is trying to do that.

It sounds as though you're not supportive enough of your wife.
Point 1, ok fair enough, give the LO a hand, shoes are tricky...

For the rest, I think you need to up your expectations. Your wife is trying to teach boundaries and your toddler will soon enough be at school. The school will not accept excuses for poor behaviour.

Looking after a baby and a toddler is hard work, they need clear routines and expectations of behaviour, life will be much easier then. This doesn't mean telling them off at all, but it means expecting good behaviour and setting expectations through ge appropriate discussions and rewards/praise.

I mostly agree with your wife.

Shoes - I can barely get my near 3.5 year old to put his shoes on, it’s very frustrating when this is multiple times a day, every day. I get annoyed when my son doesn’t listen as it’s every day we have the same issue. I’ll put his shoes on for him so that we can leave the house at some point.

Cupboard - unless she has no toys then she doesn’t need to be playing with a cupboard door, tell her to stop and redirect her to her toys. I also have a 1 year old as well as 3.5 year old, it’s very frustrating when you’ve just got the baby down to nap and the older child starts making as much noise as possible.

bus seat - your daughter shouldn’t ever be kicking the seat in front regardless of if someone is sat there or not. Would you be happy if she was repeatedly kicking the couch at home or the car seat?? Why is it ok for her to kick the bus seat though?

You need to parent your child not just let her do whatever she wants. You also need to support your wife, you said she’s the primary care giver so she spends a lot more time with the kids than you do presumably, don’t undermine her when you are there.

I think the expectation needs to shift from both of you. I have a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old. Appropriate expectations are fair and I don’t think expecting a very young child to do exactly as asked everytime without additional input or support is fair. She may be capable of putting her shoes on but she’s very young and easily distracted, going to find where her shoes are and putting them on by herself while excited for the bike ride without either of you going with her? Huge expectation, personally. I’d have just put them on when I saw her in the trailer and just made a silly joke of it. It doesn’t feel worth it to get angry.

The cupboard door thing, if you want her to stop then saying ‘stop’ isn’t enough, she needs a reason (‘wow, that is very loud while brother is sleeping’) and some connection and distraction to go do something else. ‘Lets go read a story/draw a picture together’ or screentime.

Kicking the seat - eh if it was empty I wouldn’t care that much. Save your energy!

Young kids are hard work. Are you stepping up when you return from work to give her time for herself, so she can go for a walk or just have some time alone to decompress? Do you carry the mental load of the home too?

I would lean more towards your thinking in those scenarios. All children develop at different rates but my 3.5yo have only just started to put his shoes on independently when asked and that is only when it's to go somewhere he wants to go, otherwise I'll be putting them on if he doesn't as a matter of course.
It's very hard to get older siblings to be quiet for babies naps, I have a 3 month old and I usually suggest activities in a different room at these times, but once she gets to 6 months she will nap upstairs in her cot.

2.5 is still very young and I know everyone says terrible 2s but personally I'm finding the 3s more terrible, more testing of boundaries etc, I think she should lower her expectations, but Def put baby for naps in their bedroom for better sleep.

The older they get the better they are at following instructions, from observations at things like football clubs I would say 4 is a big milestone to listening and doing as asked, the 2 and lower 3 year olds have such short attention spans and get distracted easily

Ps seat kicking, sound be discouraged from the start regardless of anyone is sitting there, so as not to complicate boundaries.

At this age you do have to pick your battles or you will be fighting with them all day and that's no fun for anyone really

Similar set up with children same age as yours but probably a lot more relaxed than you. I am very much a “pick your battles” parent, toddlers some days just wake up and decide not to play ball and I don’t have the energy to spend all day arguing especially when in reality is it actually important.

I won’t compromise on safety, but those things you’ve explained wouldn’t bother me at all. I completely get wanting your child to thrive but 2.5 is still so very young so not putting on their own shoes isn’t the end of the world.

I know my child enough to know my relaxed style isn’t having a long term negative affect but if I believe I was doing their development a disservice then things would change. I think you just have to decide based on your child’s needs what’s important and what isnt

Hello all,

I’m very very very grateful for your feedbacks, which I all read twice. I took away some tips that I have started to apply. Thank you a lot.

As a result of this work with my wife we decided that every time I hear or perceive her getting angry I would step in and help.

Big thank you again :-) !