Allergic to numbers

[colette]

My dd is 4 and resists anything to do with nos . However when she was about 2 she would count steps (up to about 7) . I bought a really basic counting book with stickers etc. and have tried to go thro' it with her when she has agreed and says she wants to . She starts listening and then pretends she doesn't know you start with one!!.I left it for a while thinking that would take the heat off. She has had a poor nursery report and I feel I should be doing something about it-she would really just slob out and watch tv if I let her.
I am feeling quite guilty as if I am getting it all wrong , but conversely I feel she is being manipulative to avoid something she doesn't want to do. I have tried to really praise her when she gets it right butI am also worried she has convinced herself she is not good at numbers. I would really appreciate any advice , as what I am doing is really not working and I am at my wits end.

Would she take to some sort of counting game? There seem to be a lot on the market aimed at that age group. Even something like dominoes (you can get ones where you have to match up the number with the spots on the other domino) looks like it might be quite fun and might help her with numbers in a subversive sort of way!!

Well I will try anything . Have tried jigsaw nos you match, jumping game with nos written and I !! or she makes that amount of jumps - I don't know if i'm consistent enough . I think I'll lay off the book and try some sort of games.

She IS only four and a baby! At school I was so rubbish at maths I can't tell you, but I'm OK. I just do a job that doesn't require arithmetic, and can still work out my change from a fiver, most of the time. In Germany, for example, kids don't get any formal education until they are seven. Personally I think we should lay off our babies (no criticism Colette - I can see you only want to do your best for dd) and let them play. Don't blame yourself or get stressed about it. Certainly don't let it lead you into thinking your baby is manipulative or other negative thoughts. I honestly feel shocked that a four year old can have a poor report! Am I alone in this? Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. She's so very, very young it can't possibly matter and even if she turns out to be rubbish at maths she can still have quite a nice life. I do! And personally, I slob out and watch TV whenever I can too!

Lat year DS (4.5) was just getting into letters and really interested, now he's just not interested. Had my first "report meeting" with the head of the nursery recently and she commented on it but wasn't at all concerned - said that children often focus on one thing at a time and at the moment DS has a really amazing imagination, lots of fantasy play etc. I have to admit I came h0me and started trying to encourage him. I've discovered he does actually know his letters, its just that he prefers to do other things so I'm quite happy. He starts school after Christmas and although part of me is worried he'll be one of the few who doesn't know his alphabet etc yet I'm also really proud of his creativity, making up stories, songs etc. He's got all the time in the world to learn and I really don't want to push. I'd just let it go for a while if I were you - after all does a report at this age really mean that much? As long as she's not "behind" (I cringe to use the word) on everything I'm sure you've got nothing to worry about.

collette, I'm rubbish with numbers too, I used to have a number blindness panic whenever I was confronted with them. I still managed ok professionally though and even ended up with a senior job in a finance and accounting dept once! I would also say don't worry about it at 4yo - it's so young. Completely agree with aloha about 4 being far too young to have a 'bad' report. I really don't think she's being manipulative, I just think she probably isn't very interested and why should she be? To me numbers are really boring too! Maybe she is picking up on your stress a bit too?

I thought that nurseries weren't supposed to give 'bad' reports. I think that'' a bit off.

Otherwise, see if she likes drawing patterns - one red square, one green square, one red etc. Patterns are all part of maths but won't be seen as numbers.

Colette - loads of good advice here already.

One of my boys' favourite 'numbers' games is 'Spotty dog' by Orchard toys. I think it costs about £5. The counting only goes up to 6, so it's a great starter. You spin an arrow, and then have to choose a dog with the correct number of spots, then you turn it over to see how many bones you've won. At the end you count up to see who has the most bones! ... Well, they love it anyway.

Snakes and Ladders is also great. Get a dice with dots on, not numbers to count.

Oh, just remembered another favourite - Orchard Toys again (I'm not a rep, honest). It's called the bus stop game. You each have a big bus shaped board, and you move little buses around the board, with people getting on and off your bus, according to the numbers on the dice. I think this one might be £8 - £10. But well worth it.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.

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Thanks for all your suggestions/comments . I honestly do not care if she is not academic I just want her to be happy. I feel if she carries on closing her ears when numbers are mentioned when she starts school and they concentrate on it more she may feel left behind.
Her nursery report was actually 3 columns of tick boxes and she got the lowest- "needs help"(whatever that means) in more than half. DH wasn't happy and I was suprised when he said he would like to discuss it with the teacher. It's good for him to get more involved. On the other hand I feel they are a bit young to be categorised like this.
Yes she still us my baby and still wears a nappy at night!! I just want to find the best way to encourage her without it turning into something negative when learning should be fun.

I agree with what has been posted about using pattern games and card games to enhance her maths skills. They are the foundation on which maths is built.

Snap, pairs, sorting lego bricks into colour piles or red,blue, red, blue, then adding in yellow and making a longer pattern etc. Shopping bingo, jigsaws. Counting rhymes.

My DD is almost 6yo, in Year 1 and excellent at maths but they still on work on simple dot-to-dot and patterns such as circle, square, rectangle, circle, etc during class time. They have to colour 'longer' and 'shorter' etc pictures different colours and do matching exercises.

What age is your daughter's 'report' aimed at? If they are using the same tick sheet for all children up to say 5yo, then of course she should be expected to 'score' in the lower parts. I seem to remember my daughter's daycare having a tick sheet that lived in her file and was updated from time to time with her 'skills' - except often they wouldn't have ticked a box when I knew she'd been doing that for ages!

You have had so much excellent advice already! My suggestions would be simply to make counting and math an everyday fun thing to do. If the books aren't working, she might learn more aurally than visually, or in a tactile way. And if it seems more like fun than something she has to try at or work on, maybe she will be more excited about joining in!

Sing songs with numbers in, like "1 2 3 4 5 once I caught a fish alive" etc, in the car, at the shop, make it seem like a "normal" thing to do. There's sure to be a CD out there with number songs on it you can dance to together! Count things yourself out loud, when you are shopping eg "I need three onions today, let's see, 1 2 3" or cooking, "two spoonfuls of sugar" etc. Make towers of blocks and see how high they get, how many you can add on before it falls. Maths is more than just knowing the numbers, just as language is not just learning the alphabet. If she knows how to count or not, doesn't mean a lot yet. Good luck, try not to worry and just have fun with it!

As I understand in, in countries including Germany & Japan there is no formal instruction and no 'schoolwork' until they are seven, yet they catch up and overtake British schoolchildren fast. I think schools/nurseries/governments push our small children far too much. As for giving a four year old a poor report... words really do fail me. I was hoping to send ds to nursery (he's on a waiting list) but if it means they say negative things about him, give him a label and push him to do stuff he's not ready for, well frankly, I'll give it a miss. I had no idea nurseries were like this! I thought they were fun places where children played in Wendy Houses and in sandpits. Yet the more I read Mumsnet, the more I think they sound like mini-Dootheboys Hall!

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The children used to look after went to live in Switzerland last year and they are both in the German system now. The eldest started school at 7.5 last sept along with other german children who did not know how to read and write at all. After one year, mornings only, all the children in the class are fluent at reading and have the most beautiful handwriting. The boy I looked after now has lovely continental handwriting and is fluent in german.

The little girl is 5, she goes to kindergarten. and will not move up to 'school' for another two years. They only go 8-12 uintil they are 11 years old.

It has made me wonder why we spend so much time forcing our children to learn to read and write so early ( I'm guilty, mine could both read at 3.5)

The children in Switzerland spend so much time in the woods during school time, they do lots of handicrafts, making things and skills, They go on visits to dams, electricity stations, farms, all sorts, but no wriing ot reading at all until 7 at the earliest.

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I know what you mean about holding them back, the little girl is desperate to learn to read and write. Mum is going to have sort out english lessons because when they come back in two years time, she will not be able to read and write and will be going into year 3 at school here!

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colette, I don't know when children start showing signs of dyslexia but it is gradually being recognised that some children are dyscalculactic. This is not just not liking numbers but is actually a very similar condition to dyslexia - i.e. some part of the brain wiring not quite working as it should.
I'm afraid I don't know much about it but I have a friend who is taking her child to be assessed as their is a family trait of very poor maths ability in otherwise intelligent people and she thinks that one of her daughters may be dyscalculactic.
Not sure that is help or hindrance.

I could read very well before I went to school because I was interested and my mother read to me a lot. But that doesn't mean I was ready for/wanted to go to school. I think the big difference here is learning through play in an unpressured unstructured way with no judging, no 'reports' no, 'she's not good enough at numbers/socialising/reading yet' and no 'this naughty four-year old won't sit still in lessons so must have a developmental disorder' - all of which makes my blood run cold. So if a child wants to run about in a field instead of reading, that's fine. If my ds wants to learn to read, I'll be happy to encourage him. He already loves books because he's always been read to, but I won't push him either. I think that often just makes children struggle and feel like failures far too early in their educational careers. It is very interesting how fast Continental children catch up with and then overtake British children when they do start formal lessons at seven. I suspect that's because by that age they are more confident, are better able to sit still, and that the ease with which they pick up their new skills instills a self-confidence that stays with them and reduces discipline problems later on. I went to a German kindergarten and just remember puppet shows and cooking and papier-mache and dressing up. There was no 'formal' learning at all. I don't think that is appropriate for small children. They learn best by playing IMO.

My friend just e-mailed me this about Dyscalculia. It may be of interest.
Dyscalculia: Key Facts for Parents This is not a comprehensive guide to dyscalculia. It is designed to give you some basic answers to the most commonly asked questions that we receive from parents. At nferNelson we don?t publish dyscalculia support or diagnostic materials for home use. Our Dyscalculia Screener, a computer based test designed to diagnose learning difficulties with numbers, is the first of its kind in the UK. It has been created for diagnostic use by educational professionals, such as maths teachers, special needs co-ordinators and educational psychologists. We do however realise that this is an area that many parents, students and adults who experience number difficulties have a great interest in, and can find very little published information for. We have included contacts to support organisations, references to further reading and other suggestions you might find helpful. What is dyscalculia? Dyscalculia is sometimes called number blindness. It is the name given to the condition that affects our ability to acquire arithmetical skills. Dyscalculic learners may have difficulty understanding simple number concepts, lack an intuitive grasp of numbers and have problems learning number facts and procedures. Even when these learners produce a correct answer or use a correct method, they may do so mechanically and without confidence. Schools have long experience of supporting children who experience profound difficulties with maths, but dyscalculia has only recently been identified as a distinct condition. This means that it is a fairly new term for many people ? parents and teachers alike. It also means that there are many adults in the UK who have never had their difficulties with maths formally identified. Furthermore, while there is currently a great deal of interest in dyscalculia in academic, policy-making and educational circles, there isn?t yet an established body of research in this area. How does dyscalculia develop? Little is known about the causes of dyscalculia, but it may be a condition that you are born with. Is dyscalculia a common condition? As people haven?t been widely tested for dyscalculia, it is hard to quantify exactly how many people in the UK have the condition. It is probably about as common as dyslexia, which affects approximately 5% of the population. A recent study of over 1000 English children showed that 36 of them with otherwise normal abilities had specific learning disabilities in maths. This equates to approximately one pupil per class in the average school. Most people with dyscalculia don?t necessarily suffer from any other learning difficulty. Indeed they may well excel in non-mathematical areas. If a child is dyslexic, are they more likely to be dyscalculic? A link between dyslexia and dyscalculia hasn?t been proved. The British Dyslexia Association has suggested that 60% of the 5.95 million Britons who have been identified as dyslexic have difficulty with numbers. Of the 40% of dyslexics who don?t have maths difficulties, about 11% excel in mathematics. The remaining 29% of dyslexics have the same mathematical abilities as those who don?t have learning difficulties. Is dyscalculia widely understood in schools? Most maths teachers have some awareness of dyscalculia. Last year, as part of the National Numeracy Strategy, the government published guidance for teachers to help them support dyscalculic pupils. Dyscalculia is likely to be a more familiar condition to people who specialise in learning difficulties such as special needs co-ordinators and educational psychologists. Which parts of maths do dyscalculics struggle with? Dyscalculics have problems with the most basic parts of arithmetic. A dyscalculic child may struggle with some or all of the following activities. Counting ? reciting the number words in the correct order and being able to count a number of objects Reading and writing numerals ? being able to understand that a number is a symbol that represents a value Number magnitudes ? placing numbers in order of size Number facts ? being able to understand that 2+2=4 or 7x10 =70 Numerical procedures ? counting on to add, borrowing and carrying to subtract Principles, concepts and laws of arithmetic ? understanding that addition is cumulative and subtraction is not. How can I find out if my child is dyscalculic? There are many reasons why a child may be doing badly at maths that don?t amount to evidence of dyscalculia. However, there are some basic areas of mathematical activity in everyday life that may indicate a dyscalculic tendency if persistently difficult and frustrating for a child. These are: Telling the time Calculating prices and handling change Measuring things such as temperature or speed If you think that your child might be dyscalculic, you should talk to their teacher. Find out if they share your concerns, what policy the school has towards dyscalculia and whether your child can be assessed. Can dyscalculia be cured? Dyscalculia is not an illness so it cannot be cured. Dyscalculia is a special need, and requires diagnosis and support. This support is designed to give children an understanding of their condition, and equip them with coping strategies that they can use in the classroom and in their day-to-day encounters with numbers. Further reading and support The Mathematical Brain, Brian Butterworth, Macmillan, 1999 Mathematics for Dyslexics: A Teaching Handbook, Chinn and Ashcroft, Whurr, 1997 The British Dyslexia Association, HYPERLINK www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk ( Helpline: 0118 966 8271 (Mon-Fri 10:00-12:45 and 2:00-4.45), Adult Dyslexia Support UK, HYPERLINK www.futurenet.co.uk/charity/ado/adomenu www.futurenet.co.uk/charity/ado/adomenu ( Helpline: 0207 924 9559 nferNelson May 2002 For more information about Dyscalculia Screener, contact nferNelson on 0845 602 1937 or e-mail us at HYPERLINK mailto:[email protected] [email protected]

Goodness, more stuff coming through. Apparently there is a dyscalculia web site: www.dyscalculia.org.uk

Bugsy, I think this is genuinely interesting and valuable information. But I do wonder if a child of four is too young to be categorised in this matter? After all, 'problems' adding up and telling the time seem to be the norm at that age. I suspect this applies to older kids of seven upwards. However, I am sure it is a real problem and proper diagnosis would help children currently being bullied by their evil maths teachers (or was it just me with Mrs Delves, the maths teacher from the Dark Side?)

Using every opportunity is half the battle. Count out sweets & then eat them, discussing how many's left etc. Draw numbers in sand. Paint numbers. Make plasticine figures/ animals with certain numbers of legs. Count the number of eyes in your family, noses etc.
It may seem silly, but they'll soon get the hang of it, & not see numbers as just something boring, to be kept at nursery. Lots of counting songs are good, too. You can make pictures to go with them & perform them for relatives. 1,2,3,4,5, once I caught a fish alive...is a good one. There were 10 in the bed, & the little one said, roll over.... The list is endless.