Would you consider this normal?

[mumofhelen]

This is a rambling so please don't reply to make a judgement on my behaviour. It's more of "what would you do in my position" type of question.

In a group of 8 children, who have known each other since the age of 2 (they are now 3 years old) there is 1 who is always left out and always needs an adult with them. They will scream the place down big time (i'm not exaggerating) if mum leaves for a minute to the point that the child needs 1:1 adult attention at all times.

This particular child refuses to eat with the other children, refuses to play with the other children and basically only likes the attention of adults.

I can't help thinking why the mother bothers coming along to the get-togethers. She never talks to other parents despite a big effort from all of us. The exception was at her son's 3rd birthday. She invited everyone and we on all got on like a house on fire. The party was the best my children have attended, she was a great laugh and a completely different (and likeable) person and we all thought "yes!". But then things cooled again.

Basically, the other parents - myself included - have been talking about her and her son, discussing whether the child's behaviour is 'normal' and why the child has not made any friendships - locally at least. The children are now of an age whereby they are choosing who to play with, and myself and other parents are having to instruct our children to play with this particular child - a request which is always met with protest. I understand the other 7 children not wanting to play with the child. For example, my dd approached in a friendly manner, holding her hand out and the child promptly slapped dd around the face. This child has also head butted other children and we believe this is the reason why the child is basically ostracised. After all, if all you get is a kick in the face trying to be friendly, why try?

I understand he attends nursery for a few hours and he has the same problems there.

I guess I'm trying to find out whether his behaviour is within the definition of 'normal' for a 3 and a half year old?

I must admit, out of the 30 odd 3 year olds I know, I've never met a child behaving in such a manner hence why I'm asking.

Any tips appreciated.

all this 'normal' and 'not normal' stuff really pees me off. they all develop at different rates.

and apologies for jumping at the op mumofhelen, but i have a son that can be a bit 'challenging' and the thought of mothers all standing around discussing him (without involving me) is horrid.

Its a really tough one. You dont want to see your child getting hurt. But something about the way you describe the mother says to me that she is aware of this and just really does not know how to approach you all.

Looks like she needs a friend to confide in and is finding it difficult to join your group

well im pretty sure my dss was discussed at length b y other parents who didnt understand his behaviour. it isnt nice, when you think about it, but its hardly the end of the world... if adults were sitting about saying 'god that xxx is sucha little shit, what a nightmare, bet he'l be a serial killer' etc , that would be pretty shitty... but i have to admit that as one fo the adults who loved him, even I thought stuff like that sometimes, so it would hardly be fair to jump on others for thinking it too !

perpetualworrier. your post has given me hope. i have the clingiest three year old ever (won't leave my side in social situations/scared of new people etc) but miracles can happen? he's due to start pre-school in september and am dreading it...

Thanks firelighter - IMO it's normal for a 3yo to be clingy - it's in their best interests to stay near mum, shows intelligence - it's the rest of them that are odd

Don't worry about pre-school. DS1 cried the first time, but then loved it. Not sure that he mixed that well, but he enjoyed all the great stuff they did.

6 weeks after he started the school nursery (c. 3.6) he came home with a sticker, as he'd actually managed to answer the register - this year he was the narrator for the Christmas play! So yes of course there's hope. IME (learned the hard way)we need to give them opportunity to develop, but not push. If they want to learn by watching for a while that's fine.

All the best.

ScruffyTeddy: The more I think of it the more I think you are right. I just read your 1st post to my husband. I'm genuinely when he called one of the other mothers a 'power-freak' - which I've never heard him say before - so maybe we may have a bit of a reputation!

I have to emphasise that we want the mum to fit in and join us. I'll try and organise a playdate for her ds and dd, at a neutral venue like a park. I'm off now to discuss your post with dh!

I think typical would be a better word to normal, not having a go btw, just a pet hate of mine

moh, the playdate sounds like a really good idea, it could be that the mum and son both feel more comfortable in smaller groups and 1-1 situations, and possibly it is the over-stimulation and excitement of so many people in the group situation that may be the cause of some of the behaviours you describe...

How was the child at the birthday party?

He requires 1:1 all the time? Maybe she can't interact with you as she's having to give her son 1:1. My eldest son (now almost 9) requires 1:1 and I never go on meet ups with groups of mums and kids because even when they say 'ohh we'll help you out' they don't they sit round gassing and drinking tea and I'm in the other corner or outside following ds1 around and praying that someone else is bothering to keep half an eye open for the other 2. There's really no point even trying.

If my child was showing that sort of behaviour I would be concerned. But I loathed people talking about ds1 and me when we were at the stage of not knowing what was up.

Agree with scruffyteddy too.

Perpetualworrier and firelighter - I have a top-of-the-range limpet toddler now 2.8. Even with the group of moms we have seen every week since she was 3 mo she still spends a good 30 mins on my lap before she will venture down to play. The last bday party we took her to we couldn't put her down for an hour.

I have been getting very stressed and anxious about it especially since the kids are playing much more together and she finds it more difficult to join in - and although never violent can be very moody and touchy with her friends which makes me totally anxious to watch. I sometimes feel we are not pulling our playing-weight at gatherings.

However, I have recently made it my mission to chill out, not make such a deal of it, and just say she needs a while to settle in and keep smiling.

It's a fine line when discussing other parents and kids - personally, where friends are concerned, I think there is a point where things need to be said tactfully face to face or not at all

I feel extremely sorry for the mother in question and admire her for continuing to attend get togethers that are probably really hard work for her.

Bear with her please, be patient and be gentle. I don't think there is any need for you to try to persuade other kids to play with him, but if he only responds to adult attention, as you suggest, how about taking it in turns to try to engage him? It would give the mum a break at least and maybe will help him to open up.

I've been thinking about this.

I wonder whether the reason why the parents talk about this child are more to do with the way he interacts with their children than his general behavior, iykwim? i.e. the op said that he lashes out at children when they approach him to play, if this wasn't the case and he just stayed with his mum all the time would people really have an opinion about it?

Generally I think people only have an opinion about other childrens' behavior when it is in reference to their own children.

I think there's a difference between clingy, ie a child that finds it hard to let mum go in new situations, and even finds it hard to be too far away, and a child that needs constant one-one and seems unable to interact with other children. The latter would bother me, and I imagine it's highly likely it's bothering his mum too and she knows how different her child is to all of yours.

wannabe - would it bother you pre-3 - I ask because my ds can be like this if I'm around but is a bit younger. he's fine at nursery.

Mumofhelen - your group does sound like it could be a little cliquey from what you say. The last thing this woman needs is to be on the receiving end of bitchiness - only you know first hand whether this is the case.

I suspect by posting on here it is because you really do care though/

Mumofhelen - I need to write something here!! My DS has special needs, and up to a year ago it was SUCH SUCH hard work taking him to playgroups with children, he would run around grabbing kids constantly, I couldn't talk to anyone. I am not exaggerating when I say that I couldn't sit down to talk to anyone.

But I persisted, and kept going because I thought it would be good for him in the end to be around children. For many months I kept wondering why I insisted, it was so stressful.

In the end I am really happy I didn't give up, the other mums were wonderful about it, gave me support all the time, I never felt like an outcast. I made a couple of great friends who invited me to their homes even though they knew how DS was. DS is now brilliant at playgroups, behaves well, he has grown out of it.

PLEASE, don't discuss this boy's problem with the other mothers, simply try to put yourself in this woman's shoes. Make her feel welcome. I don't know what this boy's problems are, but, with my DS it does help to "teach" him how to interact with other children, organising playdates with 1 or 2 other children really helps.

Sounds normal for a 3 year old to me.
Most children don't really start making prper friendships until they are about 5

btw - professionals virtually always advise taking pre-schoolers with communication/social problems to toddler groups/activities, to help the kids learn to socialise appropriately by being with "typical" kids.

Hi mumofhelen
I have two kids with special needs. My youngest is almost 3, and he has just been diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum Disorder (I am not in any way suggesting this other child has same) and as my kids also have had issues mixing with other children I think I can see where this other mum may be coming from. When your child is seen as different (and believe me you do notice, even if no one says anything direct to you. Plus how do you know someone else has not said anything - I have heard third hand about comments other mums at school have made about my eldest??)you feel embarrassed/ ashamed/ like a bad mum.
I take my youngest son to playgroup 2 times a week since Nov (I moved to part time work anddo this as I was told that mixing with others is really important for him to learn social skills)and the only people I really talk to are the childminders who run the group - because my childminder is their good friend and I know they are all familiar with my son and know his bahaviours, and they spoke to me. I also did make some attempt at conversation with a couple of other mums once when one of their sons bit my son after trying to take a toy off him (I understand how it feels often being on this side of fence).
As for change in behaviour at her childs party, perhaps she was really happy and grateful you allturned up and therefore felt more comfortable and relaxed that day (perhaps it was something else entirely unrelated to you, she may be having problems somewhere else?)

but what I would say is that try to make her actively involved in your conversation. If you act friendly in a general way she may then speak to you of her own accord about the childs issues. Perhaps she is worried herself but dare not say anything. If she doesn't speak about it off the top, you could try to introduce the topic gently - I mean by talking about it, even if you have to mention third hand someone whos child has been sent for assessment/ "your cousin is worried about her child". If you are talking to someone about it near her make sure you are not being judgemental. She may be rally worried herself and feels unable to talk about it. Seh may make oblique refereences to it without being direct so is important you listen.

With both my children it was someone else who pointed out that it was more than "naughty" - first son it was a nursery and second son my childminder, both of who have more experience with children than I do. If she has no other children at home, or near her she may not even realise there may be a problem she may just think her child is naughty or a bit behind (to me sounds like possibly something more but I am no expert).

Please do not write her off as stuck up, it may be something similar to how I feel in this group situation - I feel same at school where all mums are clustered together chatting and I am odd one out. Other thing is when she is there she may be always watching her child to ensure they are not pouncing on anyone else (and if she keeps going out it may be because of how she is feeling - embarrassed/ frustrated/angry???)

Another thing you could consider is that if the child does have some condition like autistic spectrum disorder then maybe the mum does soo, or have traits) and then that may explain her akwardness in social situations. She may feel more relaxed in her partner/ hubbys company so that also may explain her change in behaviour.

Just posted then read second page and realised many others said similar things so sorry if I repeated all that you have heard before. Jut posting it like I am experiencing it and except for chilodminders no one else really made an effort to talk whereas you say you have. Inviting for playdate with her/ her child is good as smaller number of kids/ less noisy environment probably less stressful for the child and therefore the mum and she may open up more.

He sounds almost exactly like my nephew at that age- unable to interact and prone to lashing out at other children when they got too close. Three years later, he is a charming little lad, who gets on brilliantly0 with the other children at school and is a lovely friend to my ds. He was just a little slower in developing than some other children his age. So I am really glad that I kept (most of) my comments to myself, though it was hard at the time as ds always seemed to get it in the neck.

Agree with those saying that this could be completely normal - and it's not as uncommon as you may think. Some children do demand almost constant adult attention when they're very young (my ds did!) and are clingy. Not necessarily a sign of anything and IMO lots of attention helped my ds a) be secure and confident and b) helped him get a huge vocabulary and an ability to converse with anyone, understanding of social rules, politeness, etc.....not at just THREE which is still toddlerhood, but not that long after.

This child is still a toddler. Too young for you and your friends to judge.

the mother sounds an absolute star to still bring him to these events which sound like no fun at all for her.

Agree it sounds worth doing one to one invitations for her and her ds. And worth biting back any comments for now between you and your friends.

meant to say I so agree with Luch - either sit with him and his mum and talk to them both, or talk to him - if he enjoys adult interaction, give him it instead of just thinking "they're kids, they must play together"

lots and lots of kids do not want to play with other kids at 3.