Bilingual 3.5 DS hitting and pushing at nursery. Talks of getting the speech and language therapist involved. Overreaction?

[brette]

My 3.5 yo DS started nursery in the UK in Dec 07, he's the youngest of the class and his main language is French. He's been pushing other kids, not interacting much with them, not sharing... But as the teachers point out, he's a lovely and very likeable little chap, full of life and enthusiasm. BUT social skills are not his strong point. They have established a strategy to deal with him (praise, rewards, one to one sessions...etc) but today, the nursery talked of getting the speech and language therapists involved if this goes on. I am all for helping him to overcome this difficult time and in your experience would it be a good idea to get professional help for him or is it too soon to "panic"? I should add that his French is above that of a child of 3.5 Any advice welcome. Sorry a bit long...

How is his English? Was he speaking English before starting nursery?

If his problems are due to his lack of English skills, then I think they have to give him time to settle in.

Seems to be early days yet.

Does the nursery have experience of bilingual children?

i would agreet otally for SALT my ds is speech delayed and is unable to say what he thinks so if child doing something he wont say no or stop but will push

SALT helps them understand when and how to interract i dont think it will do any harm at all as he will be able to communicate with his peers the same as everyone else it sounds like frustration of not being able to do this and SALT will help so much

he will really benefit as he will need to be able to communicate on a stronger level when he goes to school

my nuresry has many bilingual children and all of them are seen by SALT as if mainly speaking in there language at home are not at nursery long enough to be fully understanding the english language

i must say all parents at ds nursery a re pleased with there dc progress as they say it will do no harm it'll just quicken the process and for them they find it helpful so there dc are more likely to be able to communicate with there peers

If his French is age appropriate or better than average, I'm not sure whether a SALT would be the most appropriate person to involve. SALTs normally become involved when there is a suspected language delay or a language disorder (e.g. social communication disorder). From what your have said, it seems like the most likely problem is that he is in a environment where they speak a different language. This can obviously lead to difficulties with communication, which could naturally lead to difficulties with social relationships. Just think about it, he is playing with some toys, another child comes up and takes it from him. He can't say "Oi, I was playing with that, give it back". At least he probably can, but only in French. Under the circumstances, I would probably give the other child a push too. It's probably going to be very difficult for any 3 1/2 year old to get chatting to his classmates if he can't speak the same language well.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much. It sounds as if the nursery is over-reacting at this stage. Give it a few months and you will probably find your DS's English has come on in leaps and bounds and that many of the problems have resolved themselves. In the meantime,it may be possible for the nursery to involve support for children who have English as a second or additonal language. Some LEAs have roving teachers who can provide additional support to schools to ensure bilingual children are included. This might be a more appropriate referral at this stage.

he's probably frustrated because he cannot communicate his feelings because his knowledge of the language is not good enough. This is a normal phase that all children in this situation go through. After they've realised that their language - here French - cannot help them to communicate in their new environment they become much more passive and observe instead of interacting with teacher and class mates. That's when they start to learn the language. Production will come later. I wouldn't worry and would just give him time.

Thank you very much for all your answers. I would tend to agree with you Neolara and Birthdaybabe, my instinct tells me to give it some time. But his keyworker has contacted the "experts" as they said to me today and they gave me a copy of their answer (i.e. strategies to adopt. Feels like a war plann ) today and it says in it "As DS's needs are quite concerning, a referral to speech... will be the next step". They take it super serioulsy. Hence my doubts.

Kindersurprise, he was with an English childminder for two years, part-time. He was the eldest there, the others were not talking yet so he was not really immersed in a full-on English environment. French is definitely the language he understands naturally. For instance, he can repeat perfectly well any French words that he doesn't know whereas in English, when he repeats what he hears, it's not clear at all, he makes it up. But just as I write this, I realize that he's only 3.5, he's been speaking French for one year and a half, and for the little English he has, he has a better accent than me, who's been here for 12 years. Maybe I should just chill a bit and tell the nursery to do so too ;)
Seriously, I will do what's necessary regarding therapy but not before a few months. Unless things get worse of course.

Bubblagirl,
I understand the problems of bilingual children but is the involvment of speech therapists necessary or would simple English lessons (adapted to their age of course) be enough?

I would give him some time.

DD started German kindergarten aged 3yo and at the time was hardly speaking German. I speak English, DH German and she understood German but spoke mainly in English.

She was a bit delayed in her speech, compared to other children her age.

Now, at almost 6, she speaks fluent German. More fluent than English as she is all day in kindergarten.

DS has just started kindergarten 6 months ago and speaks German most of the time, although he understands English.

He has the similar "problem" that your DS has, he does not know how to react when a child shouts at him. The kindergarten teacher asked me recently about his English, saying that they thought that he was thinking of a response in English, then not being able to translate it quick enough and getting frustrated.

I am 100% sure that this is not the case, no way he thinks in English, he hardly ever speaks English.

Tbh, unless the nursery has experience with bilingual children they sometimes tend to attribute any problem that the child has with the bilingualism.

There is a very good website about bilingualism, I will post a link when I remember the name of it.

Oh, and DD had speech therapy at the end of last year. tbh, it was a complete waste of time as we could not find a bilingual SALT.

There are a few SALTs on MN, Moondog is very knowledgeable about bilingualism. I am sure that she will be along soon to give you some good advice.

here

Great, Kindersurprise, thank you so much.
Yes, totally agree with the need of the bilingual SALT. I said to the nursery that if someone was to see him, he would have to speak French too otherwise how could they assess him? She said it was a good point and that they hadn't thought about it...

I tend to agree with everyone who has said he is frustrated and doesn't speak enough english to be understood/understand and is lashing out. I think it will improve in line with his understanding and try not to worry.

Also, he has never been really interested in other children/other human beings. So I don't know if it just the language that's a problem or if there's something else more profound. He's a proper little nerd. Like his dad .
I think if I'm being honest, that's the reason why I'm a bit confused about it all... God I need to chill out...

It is unusual to ask a SALT to see a child who has english as a second language. Are there other concerns that they have voiced? I work in a Nursery and we have many child with a variety of home languages. We would never refer for this reason alone.

I was speaking to my Dad about my DS today, that he is sometimes a bit at a loss when other children shout at him. He said that my brother was like that at this age. DS is very like my DB, in looks and in temperament so that has eased my mind a little.

Yes it is reassuring when you see a harmful pattern running in a family.
FranSanDisco, I don't know if they have other concerns at the nursery regarding his behaviour. I know I've always been puzzled by his personality but he's my 1st and I don't know many children his age.
But because the nursery is mentioning all this SALT thing, I'm starting to wonder if these feelings I have may be justified. It is very difficult to put a finger on what "worries" me in him. On one hand, he's very advanced, he makes very complex sentences, he's been reading all the letters and spelling any word on a keyboard that we spell to him for months, he launches into huge monologues where he recites long extracts of movies (word for word, he when he makes a mistake, he corrects himself which was funny the first 100 times) , he's very good at handling concepts IYKWIM, but on the other hand, he's not in tune at all with the needs of others, he has never ever shown any interest in drawing or holding a pen, he runs away very easily, which makes all the outings a bit stressful...etc Like his mental development is taking over his emotional one. I should say that with us, he's very affectionate and sensitive, but with the outside world, not at all, or at least never in a spontaneous way. Not interested. And I don't know if it is something I should be worried about or if it will balance itself out with the time.
Sorry, extremely long.

Maybe you're going to tell me: yes, that's what 3 yo are like, woman!

Hmm, it does sound a bit unusual tbh. Sorry, that was not what you wanted to hear.

Perhaps the nursery is just not stimulating enough for him? Could he just be bored there?

A kindergarden friend of mine suggested this actually... (And she was convinced that he's not interested in drawing because he's very much in the abstract already )
So he might be bored. It is true that when you occupy him with things he likes (and there are many), he's quite easy to handle.
But how can you really tell? He loves doing grown-up stuff, he's extremely curious and enthusiastic about how everything works, words and music (His big dream is to play the double bass... yep, it won't be soon!) But he needs to go through the socialization phase through nursery, doesn't he? We can't have him go and work yet, can we? Mind you, he would be a very conscientious launderette boy...

Your little boy sounds very bright. Maybe he needs to go to a nursery/pre school that would cater for him. We live in France, are native english speakers and it took all 3 of my DC about one year+ to settle into the maternelle and speak french. Ds1 must have got frustrated one day because he bit another little girl on the arm, whilst at school! Little ones are not necessarily sociable, and if he is bright then maybe he just doesn't want to do 'baby stuff'.

Mountaingirl, very interesting. At the nursery they say it takes around six weeks for a child to pick up a language. Well, your DS are the living proof that it can be more. So no rush, no need to freak out after a few weeks in nursery...
And yes little ones are not necessarily sociable, that's for sure. But when he's making a fuss over his diner, I always remind myself that you don't see adults behaving like that around a table :"Nan, j'mangerai pas!" And I relax...

For what it's worth, several of my friends' kids are either bilingual or trilingual, and their language skills appeared 'delayed' but only because they were assimilating 2/3 languages. This often would result in the behaviour you describe. I wouldn't worry too much and certainly not 'panic'. My friends' kids all came out to be great communicators in the end. The nursery should be able to cope with the pushing and shoving-type behaviour before rushing down the SALT route. Good luck.

Thanks, Katyamum.

The nursery said that it takes about 6 weeks for a child to learn a new language? Um, that sounds highly optimistic.

I would imagine that you are looking at at least 6mths.