4 yr old shouting and talking back... pls help

[Mandy03]

Can someone tell me if this is 'normal' behaviour from a 4 yr old?! He can be great some days, sweet and quite obedient, but other days - I get quite concerned about his behaviour. It usually happens if he doesn't get his own way or if he gets reprimanded for something, but it also happens when he's playing with other kids and doesn't like having to take turns or share. I've heard him shout at other kids when he's obviously not getting his own way and it seems to be his way of expressing frustration but I've told him SO many times that it's not nice, and he must share and play properly with other children. I find it really embarrassing when it happens and I don't know how common it is at this age.

Yesterday I could've wrung his neck, my in-laws came over for a rare visit and when ds asked for his third biscuit I said "no" and he thumped the table with both fists out of frustration. Dh then told him not to behave like that so raised his voice at dh and said something cheeky. I was mortified because he doesn't usually behave like this when people come over, and because my MIL is the one person I don't want him to misbehave in front of :( She is SO particular about well-behaved kids and I could just hear her thoughts ticking over when he was carrying on like this. He has never been physically aggressive with anyone, it's generally all verbal behaviour... I've been having this problem on and off with him for some time now, he is very determined and I feel like we're constantly telling him the same thing over and over. As punishment he either loses toys/privileges or gets sent to his room... occasionally dh has given him a smack when ds pushes his buttons, but I don't like to use this form of punishment. Do you think children shout because they get shouted at, or do they tend to do it anyway? Is it perhaps a phase?? Sorry this is lengthy, but I am feeling down and wondering how long it will take to pass. Thanks.

P.S. I know about the 'testosterone surge' at 4 yrs, but is it really possible to blame his behaviour on that? Maybe I just have a very headstrong little so-and-so.....

Mandy, I know how you feel. My DS is 3.5 and he is the same. When he is lovely, he is a wonderful boy, he is bright and funny etc. But certain things seem to just set him off. His shouting is terrible. I try really hard not to shout at him, or even raise my voice. He can be embarassing with other children too. Our best friends have two very well behaved children and he always seems to be worse with them for some reason.
I send him to the corner for taking to me rudely/shouting etc. Ask him to stay there and think about what he has done and tell him to come and say sorry when he is ready. If that isn't working then it's no cbeebies before bed.

I think it is common. All children have different ways of misbehaving. For example, my DS is always really good in supermarkets and out and about generally, doesn't run off our climb over everything etc.

I think my DS shouts because he has learned it from me, I am ashamed to say. He is always telling me off in the way that I tell him off and I don't really know how to respond.

Sorry Mandy, I haven't really answered your questions, just listed my own problems! But you are most definitely not alone. There are lots of threads on here about nightmare 3 and 4 year olds!

dd1 (4yrs old)is also going thro this phase. she yells at us, at her sister, friends etc. even says she is fed up with us. I send her to her room and say that when she is ready to talk nicely to us she can come out. she usually yells and screams in there for a while then comes out and acts nicely.
I would ignore MIL, end of the day she must know what kids are like and i bet your dh wasnt all sweetness and light at that age.

Mandy, i don't have any answers but I do think its normal (at least I hope it is). My dd was like that at 4 and continues to be approaching 7! Things have improved. It was so bad at 4 that we had invovlement from the health visitor as her temper would result in her throwing furniture down the stairs and I was afraid for her safety. She helped us work out a strategy and suggested a star chart. Whilst sceptical it did help if not compeletely irradicate the problem. I do think we had got into a cycle of telling her off for her behaviour and had got stuck in a negative cycle. She would get a star for good behaviour, 5 little stars a day resulted in a big star and the larger number of stars at the end of the week got her a treat. It did help break the negativity. If things get bad now, we go back to it, and talk to her about why she is getting the stars and what she thinks stopped her getting them.

I think he's extremely normal. I think your key problem is your embarrassment. I think the best thing any parent can have is the skin of a rhino. Who gives a stuff what other people think? Other people are very often stupid, inexperienced, judgemental, rude and ignorant...so really, why let their views affect the way you treat one of the most important beloved people in your life. So your MIL 'is particular abotu well-behaved kids"...so what? She isn't you, she isn't your son's mother and if she sits there with a sucked lemon face, that's just her rudeness and her problem, not yours and not your son's. If you let other people's opinions (which I suspect we often simply invent and imagine - after all, you really have no idea what other people are thinking, but may just be projecting your worries onto them) rule us, we lose our confidence and the stress makes us less patient and more likely to snap IMO. Re the biscuit, your son was just frustrated. It's frustrating being four. If you were forty and you wanted a biscuit, you'd have one. If you are four, you aren't allowed. Of course, you were right to say no, but I still think a physical, non violent expression of frustration is perfectly OK. Don't you ever express your sense of frustration or anger? I think as long as nothing gets broken, it doesn't last for hours and nobody is hurt, then it's OK and doesn't deserve punishment. I do find my son is more shouty if I've been shouty, and the more bad tempered I am, the more bad tempered he is, and lots of punishment is often part of a vicious circle IMO, but kids do shout and feel cross anyway from time to time - sometimes quite often. And not being able to share or take turns very well is absolutely normal. The part of the brain that governs impulsivity is still very underdeveloped at four. If he's not hurting kids then I think they sort this sort of thing out very well between themselves. There's certainly no need to feel embarrassed about it! Everyone always notices their own child's 'bad behaviour' much more than that of other people's kids.

Thank you - it certainly helps to know you're not alone. I agree with you Aloha about the stress making us more likely to snap, definitely. But as far as my MIL goes, I KNOW she thinks this way because she has b*tched to me on many occasions about how my SIL 'allows her children to behave like monsters', and how her OWN children were so well-behaved when they were little, & that she only had to look at them and they would stop misbehaving, etc etc. I'd say it's probably because they were frightened of her :) Anyway I know I should not give a stuff what she thinks but if she talks about her other grandchildren that way, I can only imagine what she would say about mine. :(

DS is an only child (well he has an older half-brother) and this is probably another reason he is so forthright, he has spent a lot of time with adults and he also gets a bit spoilt by his other grandparents. A certain competitiveness has also emerged now when he is playing with other kids too, he likes to 'win' all the time - but I'd say that's probably quite normal. Anyway it is good to know that I'm not alone in this, at least I know he's not going around beating other kiddies up :)

She sounds horrid, bitching away about her own grandchildren like that behind your SIL's back! Who cares what a trout like that thinks anyway? I think she's sounds horrid, frankly. And I think your son sounds a lot nicer - at least he's honest and open! Please don't be harder on your son just because you've got old lemon-face round!

mandy, fwiw i think all mothers in law (and mothers!) criticise their dil's and dds about their grandkids' behaviour. I think it's selective memory. i can certainly remember my brothers and i behaving appalingly as kids but my mum keeps insisting we were all little angels! ad i know from talking to my sil that my dh was just as hyper, loud and 'lively' (euphemism of choice) as our 4 year old is now. But it really winds you up when mum's and mil's imply that your kids are the first in the family ever to have tantrums!

PS his behavious sounds very normal for a very normal 4 year old. I have found star charts v. helpful in rewarding good behaviour, with a small present after every so many stars, combined with removal of video/TV privileges (or other favourite activity) to 'punish' bad behaviour. I know it's bribery but it works.

4-yo testosterone surge, definitely. My ds is now 5 and the domestic temperature has cooled noticeably.

FWIW, my conclusion was that children (maybe boys particularly) do feel their pride has been injured when they get told off, or even caught out doing something they shouldn't, and shouting back at the parent is their way of regaining lost face, if that makes sense. My ds went through a phase of quivering with rage and shouting, "You stupid girl" when I told him off. I eventually realised that he was actually obeying what he'd been told to do, and the shouting was just letting off steam, so I used to let it go. I found that if I persisted with the telling off he'd crumple and burst into tears.

Looking at it that way helped me keep my cool too -- injured male pride is a very powerful force, even if (especially if?) you're four years old. Even at 5.5, my ds still growls when told off, which I think is a toned-down expression of the same feeling of frustration.

IME fathers find it harder to let this sort of thing go unnoticed, but it's worth spelling it out to your dh so that he doesn't get into a horrible power struggle with ds. As for the in-laws -- it's none of their business, and they should butt out.

It is normal and it is the testosterone surge. Mine is 5 now and occassionally blows up but nothing like he did when he was 4. Got it all to come again with ds2 in 3 years.

Definitely agree wth the pride thing - though also know that I shout - just feel like I've run out of options when I've asked him to stop doing something (firmly, calmly and with follow through-able consequence like no story at bedtime clearly spelled out) and he still carries on doing it! Has anyone read How To Behave So your Children Do? thoughts?

That sounds like an interesting book, Lorax - do you know who the author is? I think I'd be a bit nervous to read it though, it would probably highlight all the things I'm doing wrong :( I really think shouting is the one thing I tend to do when I get frustrated with him, but sometimes it's the only thing that makes him take notice... it's probably not good, but I'm definitely not a serial shouter so I don't know why he does it so much. Maybe it's like you say, frogs - he's trying to 'save face' or assert himself when he knows he's beaten, or something.

Aloha you would not believe some of the things my MIL has said about both my SIL and her children. And yet she is as nice as pie to her face, I have felt so tempted to tell SIL what she says but I don't want to stir up trouble and I don't want to hurt SIL's feelings - but it's so hard. That's what makes me so paranoid about ds behaving while she's here, I don't want her b*tching to the rest of her family about him (or me as a mother) when she doesn't even see us often enough to even judge. She can be quite a piece of work, and yet she wasn't even a good mother to her two sons. Anyway I'll stop while I'm ahead... I guess I shouldn't even give people like her a second thought. :(

My 4.6yr old dd1 has been like that for months. Here is a typical exchange in our house:

(dd does something naughty)

Me: "Don't do xxxx, it's not very nice"
Dd:"Well, don't you do it, then
Me:" You know I don't like it when you answer back"
Dd:"Well, you know I don't like it when you answer back"
Me: "Stop backchatting!"
Dd"Well you stop backchatting, then"

and on and on. I think it's idignation and hurt pride and i sincerely hope it's a phase that passes soon...

As for your MIL she has to be forgetting what it was really like when her boys were four. Our generation simply cannot have given birth simultaneously to a bunch of monsters.

Or can it?

Hi Mandy 03 - sorry only just getting back to this - title is "How to Behave So Your Children Will Too!" by Sal Severe (Vermilion) - American writer - actually not too scary/guilt inducing - just very practical ideas about avoiding using threats that they know full well you will never follow through on, tackling one behaviour issue at a time, taking account of sibling rivalry etc(reassuring if like me you were trying to sort toilet training/table manners/whining etc all at once!)

i have 1ds and 2dd my son is 7 and my dd are 4 and 1 ,i have been having a lot of trouble with my ds behaviour ,especially backchatting. it did improve by age of 5.5 then by 7 it has gotten quite bad.he also continually picks on 4yr old ds , this starts from morning till night . i know there is a lot of sibling rivalry between them always by him.its driving me nuts and he knows it but just doesnt care. he also has obsessive compulsive disorder which doesnt help. anyone with ideas i'd love to hear them.

Sorry to say I have exactly the same with DS1 3.7yrs. I have no idea what to do either. I also have a DS 2.5yr and DD 6m - maybe jealousy?

Thank goodness it's not just my DD then!! She's 4.2 and is an absolute nightmare child at the moment with backchatting, shouting at me and her Dad and being generally rude and obnoxious! I've got to the point where I don't know what to do with her. As an example, we asked her to make a start with tidying her room and to take all of her toys from our room back into hers. She point blank refused. It boiled up to the point of me saying that if she didn't want to look after her toys I'd put them in the bin as it was dangerous to leave them all over the floor. She just said "Go on then." So I did and she didn't care. They are in the bin.

I wonder if any of it is to do with the fact that we are having a baby in 4 weeks - another girl - hopefully that is what is making it ten times worse all round and she'll get past it!!

I can't believe it's only 4 weeks - that has really flown by!

I have a 4.3 year old son who is the same. They know how to push us to the limit sometimes. Was beginning to think it was just us.

Hi this is ther first time I have used mumsnet on the advice of a friend as I have 3 kids 2 boys and a girl. I to am having a problem with the youngest boy that turned 4 in dec. He was always the easyest and most contnt out of my 3, but since he hit 4 I have had real battles with him. He runs off on me ALL the time wont listern to any thing he's told and it's really getting me down. I am I hate to say a shoughter and I HATE it. I know he's aware what he is doing is wrong as he always huggs me when he is being told what he has done wrong but I just can't seem to do any thing to stop him behaveing this way. I have try taking things away, stopping TV, sending him to his room, but nothing seems to get through to him. Every thing seems to be a real battle of wills from getting dressed in the morning to him running off.

Hi I am new to this! Can anyone help me with mu five year old son? He is driving me mad with his constant negative behaviour-he refuses to do anything run of the mill with out crying and shouting about it!This morning I ended up smacking his bottom (which i hate myself for) all because he would n't put his socks and shoes on-he has done this a 100 times before but today he says he can't do it! He constantly speaks to me as if he wants to kill me!!!A little exaggeration there. It is really getting me down. School and after school club tell me that he is a little darling and yet he is so unhappy with everthing at home. I have a 20 month old boy and he is so jealous of him!Where have I gone wrong?!

wordsmith on Mon 06-Dec-04 11:25:52
"mandy, fwiw i think all mothers in law (and mothers!) criticise their dil's and dds about their grandkids' behaviour. I think it's selective memory. i can certainly remember my brothers and i behaving appalingly as kids but my mum keeps insisting we were all little angels! ad i know from talking to my sil that my dh was just as hyper, loud and 'lively' (euphemism of choice) as our 4 year old is now."

If you think about it, this is actually a very consoling thought. It means that the day will come when we are convinced that our dc's were beautifully behaved, immaculately turned out little angels of perfection. Roll on, oh roll on!!!

Mandy, FWIW I don't think your DC is following your lead necessarily re. shouting, etc. I have 3 DD's, the youngest is too little to guess what her character will be like but the elder two are like chalk and cheese. To the extent that it's often commented on by friends!

DD1, Charming, kind, delightful! Emotionally intelligent since day dot and does as she's asked, when she's asked.

DD2, Charming, kind, hilarious! Doesn't give a toss about what anyone thinks, is fairly aggressive pre assertive and doesn't think twice about squaring up to me, however reasonable a request is put to her. Rants, raves, etc

It's as if she's (DD2) going to need time to grow into her massive character. Big personality in a little body and however trying I find her behaviour at times, I always think it must be ten times more difficult for her to deal with. (On good days, on bad days I sit quaking in the corner )

I have no doubt my DD1 would delight your MIL and no doubt that DD2 would not just disgust but terrify her!

I agree with Frogs about letting them have a bit of face saving as long as they obey. After all, this is what we do as well adjusted law abiding citizens: obey the rules and grumble about the government. Can't start too early

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