do 2 year old understand its not right to kick a baby?

[robinredbreast]

yes last week one of my friends dd'd kicked my little 7 month old in the face,we were all on the floor with them
my friends dd was next to my dd, she has never hit my dd before, and before we could do anything her dd 2 years old kicked my dd 7months in the face
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poor old dd was sobbing

do you tink 2 is too young to understand?
or do you think at 2 they know it is wrong to do this?
my friend has invited us again next week and im a little worried tbh

please tell me what you think?

the reason im asking is i do not have much contact with 2 year olds so i do not know, really what they understand and what they don't

I think at that age they do whatever they can to get the attention back on them and off the boring rug rat

My DD was almost 2 when my DS was born and one day when he was the centre of attention under his baby gym she jumped on top of his head! A big jump, with a real crunch to it

7 years later and it is still no better - although he can reciprocate better now

I'd say 2 probably is too young to really understand properly that it's a baby and not a dolly. Obviously kicking is wrong regardless of who it is or how old the child. But I know that DS2 (4) still has to be reminded (frequently) not to try and lie on top of DS3 (8 months) on the floor like he does with DS1 (7), and not to repeatedly "pat" him on the head, or give him huge (strong) hugs.

hi guys
im quite worried about going there again, as this wasn't really just a soft kick he really kicked her right in the face,
i was sitting right next to her aswell

what should i do?

RRB, yes, I think two is too little to understand it's "wrong" as such.

Probably knew they'd get told off for it, but thought what the heck.

For toddlers, often the thought is the deed - there's no processing in between.

Fwiw, I found older children extremely irritating - big, clumsy, lumbering, snotty-nosed things - when I only had a little baby.

I think they're quite sweet now I have two of 'em and no babies

Poor DD though - but if this little girl tries anything again, I think the best approach is to say, "Kind hands/feet - shall I show you how to touch the baby?" and really praise her for being gentle, such a big girl, what lovely cuddles she's giving, etc.

Sometimes babies "hog" the attention (cos they're cute) and toddlers get annoyed - when it's the work of seconds to change the attention balance so the bigger child is getting the praise for being kind to the baby - win/win

I actually don't think it's too young to understand. I'm thinking the baby was probably getting the attention at that time, no? And the toddler was a bit miffed. A handy way of getting attention back whilst wreaking revenge on adored baby- boot her in the face.

What takes a little longer coming is not acting on these murderous/ attention seeking impulses. I hope your friend dealt appropriately with the situation last week (using timeout or withdrawal of attention). If not, I recommend not putting your baby down on the floor next time you go!

Actually, I shouldn't have said "is she tries anything again" - be proactive about it once the older child's comfortable to have you there (ie don't foist the baby straight onto her) - ask her if she'd like to tickle the baby's toes, etc. Then tell her how much the baby likes her and how well she's tickling her, etc.

I wouldn't avoid going to see your friend anymore than I would avoid going to a library or group with toddlers present.

It is a lesson in the difference of great big clumsy, physical toddlers and vunerable soft little babies.

But toddlers are still little too and have lots to work out about the world. So hard as it is, temper your response with the knowledge that your darling dd will be 2 too soon

ANd do wot Hunker said

What did your friend do when this happened? a two year old does not know not to do it but they can learn not to do it again!

i feel so guilty, like i should of stopped her doing it to dd

well both our dd were in the middle so they were both getting our attention.

i have honestly never found older children irritating, i honestly thought friends dd was ok with my baby
my friends dd sometimes pushes around [pushes and hits] another friends dd, but i thought that was because they are the same age, where as my baby is 7 months

my friend spoke to her dd in there 1st lanuague italian, so i not sure what she said, but she told me, she told her to be gentle and careful with the baby
but she didnt raise her voice or do time out or anything.
i was quite suprised at her response, but maybe just talking too them is the best thing to do.
what sort of reaction would you expect from someone in this situation?

RRB, I would expect the older child to be told it's unkind to kick, then shown kindly how to approach the baby.

I know there are other people who would expect "punishment", but I honestly don't believe this sort of isolation causes anything but confusion in children of this age.

I think it's better to accept that toddlers react inappropriately sometimes (oftentimes - depending on the toddler!) and it's our job to help them respond in a more sociable manner. Acting antisocially towards them ourselves helps nobody.

I think your friend probably responded appropriately. It is often not good to shout/time out make a big issue. A quiet word should suffice. It may not even ever happen again.

im sure your right, and know more about 2 year olds than i do

perhaps its best if i dont put dd on the floor next time just to be on th safe side nd ill try your suggestions hunker

i suppose i just felt bad that i didnt have chanc to stop it
and it was in the face, if it was just on the leg or arm it wouldnt of seemed so bad iykwim?

im quite worried about going there tbh? am i being silly?

I think thats a good point too is to show her how to approach the baby gently and show her what the baby likes,
Your friend absolutly reacted right, shouting at a two year old does no good as they move from what they have done to being worried if you talk them through what they have done they make the connections. (IMVHO)

Not silly. Protective of your baby - that's understandable.

Do try praising this little girl for the sweet way she is with your DD - and encourage her to be sweet to her.

You are not being silly. It is horrible to have seen you lovely little 'un kicked in the face.

BUT, do go back, it'll be okay and you'll be aware and so will your friend and prob the toddler will not do anything anyway.

Don't be worried. Don't feel guilty. They all get a bit bashed eventually. I'm quite sure mine were before 7 months

fwiw, I don't imagine the little girl was aiming for your daughter's face. It almost certainly wasn't that premeditated! As you say, it would have seemed less serious if it hadn't been her face, but it could equally have been any other part of her body that got kicked.

I would expect the mother to tell the 2yo it was wrong, but tbh I wouldn't expect this to have instant effect; you might have to go on for a year or longer telling toddlers not to fight or kick, it's not instant. And no, they themselves cannot understand the concept that they are hurting someone who has feelings like themselves and that this is a bad thing to do. Adults just need to look out. I would have told the toddler 'no' in a firm but calm voice and lifted him away. Time out to my thinking presupposes that he was deliberately defying his mum in doing something he understood and remembered was wrong and could not be controlled in other ways. At this age, I think you'd be using time out for temper tantrums and deliberate continued fighting back, if you use it at all.

When my ds was newborn and dd was 3.5, I used to lock the door to ds's room when I went to the lavatory. Dd knew she mustn't hurt ds, but I didn't trust her, even at that age, to remember every single moment of the day, or necessarily to understand what actions might hurt a baby, so I thought it fairer to both of them to keep ds out of harm's way and let all play be supervised for the first few months.

thankyou so much for your replies
i think your right about my friends way of dealing with this
just seems dd is always getting bashed by someone as family cousins are all older too

should i avoid put her on the floor next time to see how it goes ?

2 definatly too young to understand that anyone else is actually a pperson and feels pain. Your baby was just squeaky furniture to her. Keep your baby on your lap when around 2 year olds - they are unpredictable and some are violent.

First born children should never be left on the floor. I think I'd have had a nervous breakdown if my Ds1 had been on the floor with rampaging toddlers. well done you for not flying off the handle.

I think at 2 they understand that you don't want them to do it (although they won't even pick up on that until it or something like it has happened once or twice) but they don't understand why -- i.e. that it hurts the baby and that the baby is a real person (and a reasonably vulnerable one at that) with real feelings.

Is your friend's DD just two, or nearing three? At two I'd have approached it with DS by giving the baby lots of attention and reinforcing calmly to DS that we do not kick people because kicking hurts. By the time he was nearly three I'd have done the same thing but I'd also have got him to sit out for a while and think about it (we don't use that as a technique much, but I do use it for deliberate violence, which fortunately doesn't happen often). There's a huge difference between the understanding of a 2.0 yo and a 2.11 yo IMO and IME (and also potentially a huge difference between individual children) and how you handle it needs to be based on where that child is in his/her understanding.

I think a 2 year old probably can't understand why they shouldn't kick or hit a baby. However, I also think that a 2 year old can be taught to only stroke a baby. I think this because my DS is nearly 2 and my mum has a small (old) dog. From a few months ago, every time he went near the dog, we told him "careful" and showed him how to stroke her. He now approaches the dog and strokes her. He has not hit her for a few months now. It does take a while, but it is something they can learn. My DS is not particularly obedient otherwise , but he has been told over and over to only stroke the dog.

I think a normal 2.0 yo would hit a baby, unless he/she has been in routine contact with a baby/dog whatever, and been told/shown repeatedly how to treat them. When my DS was 7 mo, I would not have put him on the floor with a 2 yo. My DS couldn't crawl at 7 mo and was perfectly happy sat on me playing with toys when there were older children around, so I would meet your friend, but keep your baby on you. I would take no offence if someone came to visit me with a baby and wouldn't put the baby on the floor with my nearly 2 yo, even though my 2 yo has been taught not to bash small people/animals! I think it's something you end up trying to get a 2 yo to understand when the need arises, otherwise it might not be something you think about.

thanks ill take the advice and not put her on the floor when toddlers are about, even if im sitting right next to dd.
shame as she loves rolling about on the floor

these two have been in regular contact weekly since dd was born and we have shown her dd how to stroke and be gentle with the baby, suppose thats why we thought she was ok with my dd.

this friend does use the naughty step which personally i thinks a little harsh on a 2 year old[ 2 years one month by the way]
but thats what she chooses to do, so i suppose i thought friend msy react more, although i agree its probably better to try and talk to her

dd is going to see her cousin today also a toddler
im a bit worried about that now too

any tips would be gratefully recieved

ok im just about to leave, when dd had hr bf top up

i guess ill just have to make sure she doesnt go on the floor?