nervous grimace or dumb insolence?

[ScummyMummy]

One of my sons is driving me demented with his reaction when he's told off. The little git responds to all interventions preventing him from or admonishing him for doing evil deeds by smiling and laughing. Suddenly I understand why people talk of dumb insolence and tell kids to "wipe that smile off your face- RIGHT NOW." I find it absolutely totally and utterly infuriating... Why why why is he doing this? Do you think it could be nervousness because he's scared that I'm angry? Is he misguidedly trying to charm me? I'm not a total shrieking ogre with stratospheric expectations or anything- I just intervene whilst trying to prevent world war 3 between him and his brother, keep him safe and reasonally well behaved etc. All I want him to do is take what I'm saying on board (eventually) and not GRIN at me while I'm delivering the message. Any thoughts?

IMO, it's the Mona Lisa smile that Steve Biddulph (I think?) talks about: that smile that children bring out when you're being angry and they, therefore, are getting an interesting reaction from you. So I think it's normal and he's interested in your reactions. Hey, it's exciting, mum getting this cross! So I don't think he's scared or trying to charm you, I think he's glad that you're being exciting and dramatic and that he's getting attention, big time!

Sorry, meant to say, keep delivering the message and try to ignore said smile...

Scummymummy - that's me! & I still do it now, even when arguing with dh. I can assure you 100% that for me anyway, it's nothing to do with winding up parent/ getting a reacton. I always seem to smile or laugh when I'm undere xtreme pressure of confrontaton. I physically can't help it. I had an absolutely miserable time as a child with a hot-tempred step-dad, bacasue he would go insane with rage at me 'smirking and laughing' but I wished to God I could stop but I couldn't.

I feel a bit sorry for your son.
Of course, he might be being a sart -a but maybe not. Try asking when tyou have a quiet moment

scummymummy, I know that smirk. It totally winds me up, so not good for family harmony.

I make my son go to his room for a minute. That's for his benefit as well as being a punishment. I know I will get angrier than I intend if he keeps smirking at me, so just as well he is not there.

I don't refer to the smirk as such, because I'm sure in my case that my son knows exactly what he is doing, so I don't want to react to it. Instead I say, I won't have attitude from you, go to your room till you can be nice again. Nine times out of ten, when he comes down, the smirk has gone.

Interesting what Monkey says about the expression being a natural reaction. I hadn't thought about it before. If you think your son is really not trying to be insolent, then talking to him about it might help - if he goes to school thinking he can smile at a teacher's telling off, he could find himself in needless trouble.

at one bizarre point in my mixed-up teen years I even considered joining the army (????), and the one thing that put me off was when they shout at the recrutes during training & drills, I knew I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face.

Seriously scummy, this has plagued me all my life. I even had a row with dh last night & had to conduct the entire argument with my back to him. It winds him up so much, like it did my parents, and I've never been able to stop, in fact the more I try to stop, the more likely I am to burst out into an audible giggle. I can even cry & laugh at the same time, but believe me, I never find the situation amusing, just very desperate.

You really need to talk to your ds. If he has got my unfortunate condition, go to the experts, find out how to stop it & let me know if there is a solution!

Monkey- you've got me worried now!

I do personally relate to the feeling of reacting to things in a bizarre way and feeling an inappropriate urge to laugh at the wrong moment when very upset and stressed... remember feeling an almost irresistable urge to giggle hysterically just before my mum's funeral on seeing my little sister's horrified face when kissed sympathetically and warmly by a decidedly unfavourite uncle. I knew I absolutely couldn't and shouldn't give way to this urge in public and had to rush from the room to sob and laugh in the toilet.

So I suppose I should feel more sympathetic to my boy but have to admit that I'm finding it difficult to deal with, though I am trying... I don't think he's reacting to me BEING angry because I don't actually usually FEEL angry- or therefore express anger- until he brings on the "mirth" reaction. I think he's one of those kids who has a strong sense of his own dignity- he sometimes comes across as ever so adult in his ways of relating, if you know what I mean, in marked contrast to his twin!- and finds it difficult if he sees what I'm saying as criticism. I think he often perceives himself as an equal rather than a small powerless child and in some ways I'm really pleased about that. I do think he sometimes does it because he thinks it will divert my attention away from whatever I'm talking to him about; maybe he sometimes can't cope with the idea that he's seen as in the wrong and hates to confront the reality that he's only 3 and a half and has parents who can ask him to do/make him do stuff he doesn't want to do. I also still feel that he DOES sometimes do it deliberately to get a rise out of me, as Tigermoth and WWW suggested. Sorry, monkey! I guess the most important thing is for me to find ways of ignoring it or having a strategy like Tigermoth for getting him out of my sight for a short time so I don't get too frustrated by it and take it out on him. I certainly don't want to turn out like your step father, monkey, and make the brat miserable by being a bad-tempered old so and so! Thanks for your insights, everyone.

Scummy, I'm another one like Monkey - I used to get into terrible trouble at school because I would smirk when being ticked off for a small thing and it enraged the teachers who turned it into a big thing and I really really couldn't help it, it was just a nervous reaction.

I don't remember how old I was when this started - like, was I as young as your DS - so I can't help with whether he is doing it on purpose or not...does anybody else ever need to tell him off? Does he do it to them too? 3 and a half sounds very young to be doing the Mona Lisa. What are his eyes like when he does it? Do they look amused? If it is involuntary they might look a bit worried...

(Have to say it would drive me wild too!)

Hi janh! My partner is the only other person who tells our son off (as far as I know)and he also gets the benefit of the infuriating smirks, which cause him to practically foam at the mouth on occasion! I think the boy may emulate you in getting into deep doodoo for this at school, though he is quite stunningly good at nursery- whereas his brother can be a pain in the bum there but is usually pretty ok at home. (Was it you who said something about kids having to take on "good child" "naughty child" roles depending on the perceived behaviour of their siblings? Interesting.) As for the glint in his eye... occasionally a bit strained but most of the time cheeky as cheeky can be. He's rather cherubic looking with big blue eyes and blondish curls, can be exceptionally charming and is well aware of his powers in this direction. He's either going to be teacher's pet or teacher's most hated, I suspect.

I had that smirk, last night when I told my 4yo ds's off, for mucking around at bed time. I'm sure they both knew, exactly what they were doing !!!I blew my top and seperated them, something they realy hate.It was one of those days yesterday,I felt like I was having to tell them off every 2 minutes. Does anyone else feel like a grummpy mother!!!!

Aaagh ... I also hate this reaction from my 3.9 year old ds when I or my partner are telling him off. I am pretty sure he does it on purpose and it winds me up something chronic. Why can I never remember at the time that the best way to deal with an attention grabbing child is to ignore them? I fall for it every time and end up shouting.

Ok, my son is 14 months and I've never had to tell him off yet, and my stepdaughter was six when I met her and ditto - BUT - does it really matter if they smile, as long as they change their behaviour if it is really unacceptable? I too used to get the giggles at very inopportune moments at school and even now as an adult. I remember my dh hurting his head quite badly by banging it on a doorway (he's very tall) he was in pain but I couldn't stop laughing. I eventually had to leave the room because it was so inappropriate. Chimps grin as an 'appeasement' gesture when in trouble with those higher up the pecking order. Some evolutionary scientist think our social smile is a development of that appeasing grin. Maybe we inappropriate grinners are just a little less evolved?

LOL, aloha! That would explain a lot about me! (I can pick up almost anything with my toes too and DH has always accused me of being further down the tree.)

Scummy, it was me who posted about "roles" in the family, I've often wondered how it works with twins as they have to sort theirs out simultaneously - if yours alternate behaviour between school and home (IYSWIM) that seems a very fair arrangement to be going on with! (Might change later though - my DS1 used to hate having lots of people paying attention to him when he was little but looks for it now!)

No helpful advice re the smirking though - sorry - can't even think of a strategy when he does it. "I'm not going to tell you off any more until you stop that smiling!"? I don't think so somehow!

Hmmm I suppose you could always try smiling back when you tell him off? take away a treat with a big grin on your face? might bring the message home or would this confuse him, bearing in mind he is only three and a half?

Sorry, I'm not sure that I have that experience with a child. I mean, I might.. he smiles when we're discussing these things, but so do I. I'm just like monkey -- get me even somewhat worked up and I smile. It's reactionary. I just do it. Truthfully, I never really thought about it until a dear uncle of mine remarked that I'm not actually the low-key person people think I am, I just smile all of the time. At any rate, I can easily ignore the smiles in my sons. They are like tickles, maybe, they can't help it.

BUT you know your boy best and if he's doing it to provoke a reaction then you know the answer. Don't do it! It's hard.

And I follow my own advice how often?

scummy - there's loads of interesting discussions about roles in "Siblings without rivalry" & "How to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk" both by Faber & Mazlish

scummymummy, it makes me sooooooo mad when my dd does this. She's just turned 6 and still does it now and then. And of course she knows it sends me off the deep end (and IMO that's why she does it). I have to send her to another room just so I don't have to look at her, otherwise I lose it. Sorry I know it's not much help, but I do empathise!