DD deliberately wetting herself when she doesn't get her own way...

[padboz]

My fantastic generally well behaved elder daughter seems to have found a trump card to anything we can do to control her behavior. Shes not naughty very often but when she is we are fans of the naughty step followed by a quick discussion of what went wrong, that she isn't a naughty girl but the behaviour wasn't good enough, cuddle and kiss, 'All over, lets go and look at a book' etc... nothing too scary there. DD has realised however that asking her to stay on the stairs for 2 minutes is boring. She immediately asks for the potty. We realise this is tactic but allow her to use the potty. She may or may not go but when she says she has finished we put her back on the stairs. Cue fury and another demand to use the potty. This goes on for a bit until she just stops asking for the potty and wees on the carpet. . This is annoying enough but having been a fantastic sleeper for well over a year she has started waking up in the night and asking to play with her toys. We say no, its night time, no fuss, keep talking to a minimum and leave. She asks to use the potty... we provide it.... she may or may not go... this goes on for a while... but she has always got some left to wee on the duvet. We have tried confiscating toys but she has so many and no particular favourites so she just plays with something else - we tried confiscating the lot and she just flicks through magazines or sorts shoes into pairs or size order or folds towels as neatly as she can - I cant bore her enough to realise its a punishment without making her sit still and do nothing. Shes two and a half. Potty trained herself at 14 months by watching a little girl at her childminders and hasnt worn a nappy at night for 6 months.... what to do? put her in one before putting her on the naughty step? put her in one at night? our stairs have the feint wiff of a nursing home now and we have no idea how to gain the upper hand again any ideas?

hen you put her on the stairs put the potty beside her with out her asking for it and have a potty in her room at night just in case? That way she cannot think she is controlling you by making you fetch it at her will

I'm not an expert, and my dd isn't potty trained yet, but my instinct would be the next time she does the night time thing is to tell her that tomorrow night she'll have to have a nappy, and carry through with the threat. Likewise during the day, if you need to put her on the naughty step, add putting on a nappy to the punishment, telling her that if she behaves like a baby then you'll treat her like a baby. While I know you don't want to make going to the loo and issue, I think judiciously using a nappy will put you back in the driving seat.

Or put a water proof sheet on the step and ignore any leaks completely, but when you change her clothes after you've given her a cuddle, comment that if she keeps on having 'accidents' she'll have to start wearing nappies again. And at night time again be prepared to ignore any leaks - if she's finds she's uncomfortable, she'll probably stop doing it.

If weeing loses its power to distract you from her bad behaviour and to get her her own way, then she'll probably stop doing it.

motherhurdicure is the bissel any good/expensive? we have wooden floors in most rooms so a big investment in carpet cleaning might be struggle... come to think of it maybe we should just get wooden stairs ha ha!

Dropdeadfred Shes still in a cot at the moment - tho that is something I think we are ready to deal with (whole new lot of problems there I should think ha ha!) but I worry about putting the potty in her room because she absolutely insists on emptying it immediately and washing her hands - so she would be wandering around the house, full potty in hand in the middle of the night turning on taps and things.... the mind boggles at the possibility for disaster. Putting it by the stairs is definately a possibility - we've always insisted its used in the bathroom but I suppose we can bend that. She'll want to wash her hands but that will have to wait. Maybe that might make her sit there for the two minutes.

She's obviously a clever girl who has worked out exactly how to control you! So you need to take control back.

I don't think a nappy should be part of her punishment, but I do think that I would use the threat of a nappy to try and get some control back. I'd give her the choice - she either uses the potty properly when she needs it and stops asking for it when she doesn't need it, or she goes back to having a nappy on all the time. If she choses the potty (which she almost undoubtedly will) then she has one chance (or however many you decide) - the first time she goes back to behaving this way then she has to go back to wearing a nappy. It might just dent her pride enough to stop the behaviour, but you have to be prepared to carry out the threat.

And I would also tell her that if she has an "accident" then she has to help you clean it up - and that's even more boring than sitting on the naughty step!

My DD would wet herself 2-3 when upset/cross etc and was dry before 2 in the day. It is type of power thing so I would just ignore it and say let's go and get some dry clothes while saying clamly what she needed to do, etc or whatever the wet pants were about. Don't tell her off, don't let her see it bothers you as she will keep doing it. I don't think going back to nappies is the way to go tbh.

ooh NAB3wishesfor2008 thats something to think about - you think it isnt deliberate? If its just cos shes is cross then I would feel dreadful - I imagine she would be quite embarrassed about that. Hmmmmmmmm. Its just the way she instantly asks for the potty when shes not happy that makes me think its a game for her, but I hadn't really considered the possibility that actually being upset makes her think she needs to wee when perhaps she doesnt really until shes worked herself up enough to manage one. Gawd. Now Im not sure Im dealing with this well at all...

Having said that shes not daft... How do you know if its deliberate? I'd hate to think it was stress.

Hmmm - not sure, but it may not be deliberate. My dd is 3, has been toilet trained since last March, and has recently wet herself (and once pooed herself) while upset. I'm sure she didn't mean to because she seemed genuinely quite mortified.

I think confiscating toys at her age will not be effective - I don't think she will even really understand it's meant to be a punishment, it'll just be confusing.

Think the advice not to react to it is the best imo. I wouldn't go back to nappies.

Huge sympathy here, as my dd (2.5) has just started wetting herself again despite being dry for 6mths, but I'm pretty sure it's because we have a new baby (10wks), who she adores, but when he is being fed etc that seems to be when she has the "accidents". If it is always connected with the naughty step could you maybe try a different form of punishment for a while like a star chart, or removing a toy?? I tried talking to my wee one about and she refused, but when I talked about it as another person ("Why do you think a wee girl who was very good at staying dry might wet her pants?") she basically told me it was cos she was bored!! How bad did that make me feel, but at least it was a reason and something to go on, so might be worth chatting to her about it at a neutral time?

TBH with my DD I did think it was deliberate some of the time.

Hi, Padboz we had a similar sort of problem with our DS when DD2 was born. He was the same age as your DD,if he felt he wasn't getting enough attention or when he had been told off and was feeling sorry for himself.He used to stand at the edge of our sitting room rug and pee onto it. It was very deliberate and for about three days he was told of put in the corner each time but it seemed to make things worse. ( the rug never recovered!) Then we decided to ignore it and say NOTHING but went back to huge amounts of praise when he did use the loo he had been toilet trained for a good few months before this happened. He soon gave up on it, one tip is to buy a cheap bath mat- rubber backed to sit her on, or the potty.
love kate

It does sound like she is doing it deliberately. She has worked out how to get maximum attention from you.

However, going back to nappies is, imo, not the right answer. It gives the wrong signal, going backwards in her development.

Would she go on a toilet? Could you decide with her that she is too big for the potty and let her use the toilet, since she is such a big girl? Throw the potty away.

Otherwise, I agree that the no fuss approach is the best answer. If she wets herself, then lay out clean clothes for her to change herself while you clean up the mess.

BTW I feel this is a behavioural problem rather than a toilet training one.

My dd has always loved clothes and went through a stage of wetting herself on purpose when we were in shops because she worked out that I usually had to buy her new pants and trousers/skirt as I had stopped carrying a change of clothes around (she had been out of nappies for about a year at this stage). I can laugh about it now but at the time I was demented! I started carrying a really horrible pair of leggings in my handbag and she stopped. I know this wont help you much but its good to know other peoples kids do these things too.

ha ha dodgykeeper - been there too. this really wasnt deliberate on DDs part - she was just having too much fun at an open play morning in the Early Leaning Centre and peed all over the floor having been dry for months (this was before the stairs thing kicked in) and when I asked her what happened she said 'it would take too long to go to the toilet' so we had to get a double buggy into the BHS loos and bath her in a hand basin before getting her into her new kit that shes never worn since cos its just awful. Forget buying a Wii just cos zavvi's finally gor a few in - this is proper panic buying.

kindersuprise : she uses the toilet perfectly well out and about because I hold her upright where she cant reach the ground but prefers the potty at home because she needs no assistance. She empties it herself and rinses it and washes her own hands - shes proud of this and needing help to get onto the loo would dent her confidence a bit I think. i think most of all as people have said we need to draw less attention to it. she might have to sit in it more than she has and we'll clen up the mess when shes not looking.