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COMPLETELY contrary 4 year old making parents' life a misery!

35 replies

ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 06/01/2008 20:56

Can I tell you about my BF's four year old? I don't know whether his is a special need or not, even though dealing with SNs is a large part of my life. Can you just tell me what you think.. or if anything strikes you about my description of this behaviour?

Friend's DS became difficult to handle from being a 1 year old. He talked early, gave every indication of being quite advanced, intelligence wise but used to have awful tantrums. We called it "early terible twos" but it has just gone on and on and got worse and worse.

He has the most terrible rages when he can't get/have what he wants and in the old days, it seemed just a bad variation of normal, but now you can see him activiely seeking something to kick off about, he doesn't even have to have been told "no", it can just be something like getting up when told. His meltdowns used to involve vomiting at will (he seems unable to do this most of the time now although he tries!) as well as wee-ing and pooing at will. He went through a long phase until quite recently of physically attacking his parents during a meltdown but that seems to be less so at the moment.

BF, who is a very good mother and known by all her friends, including me, as being very good at dealing with children (kindly but firmly) has done nothing to cultivate this behaviour, although as time as gone on, she and DH (and us too!) find ourselves "pussy footing" round him a little because his meltdowns are so long, and violent and sometimes it's so darn inconenient for him to have one! They happen anywhere his parents are.. and sometimes us (as our families are so close we are all like family). He starts from the moment he wakes up these days.. doesn't want to get out of bed for school (he gets enough sleep; it isn't that),doesn't want to get dressed, doesn't want to eat breakfast until it's too late to eat breakfast, THEN he wants it.. won't wear coat, won't carry book bag, won't walk (BF has to half carry/half drag him to school, sometimes half dressed, which luckily is not a long walk.)

At nursery, the leaders were only aware of this behaviour from what BF and her DH told them and the fact that he would sometimes arrive with a red and tear stained face but would switch to behaving nicely as soon as he arrived. School has been a bit different. Although he loves school, has friends, gets on well and does his work (and is still v.bright) he has to be dragged all the way into the classroom most days, by the teacher herself. He seems immune to the fact that he is making a spectacle of himself in front of the other children.

It's as if he HAS to have something to "kick off" about.. he actively looks for it all the time! Eg today we all went out of sunday dinner to a pub; he immediately said he didn't want any (just to be contrary, you could see by his face) then as soon as we ordered, he wanted some. He does this a lot about everything.

It's exactly as if he HAS to know where the line is, so he can cross it, ALL the time, almost all day, every day. And he crosses it immediately. It's as if he NEEDS to cross lines even if one hasn't been drawn.. he'll establish what and where the line just SO he can cross it!

He completely exhausts and stresses out his parents who do their very best to "jolly him along" (distraction tactics) to avoid him kicking off, but he won't be distracted by the "jollying along" very often anymore.. his whole day (when not at school)revolves around doing it.. so, so does theirs! They are getting no pleasure out of him and he from them because of this and it obviously affects his 7 year sister as well. Everything has to be about "appeasing K" (I find myself doing the same) so as to avoid a meltdown if possible, although he is not spoilt and he by no means gets whatever he wants. He loves his playstation but he is banned from it most of the time because they use it to make him understand that his behaviour (eg in the morning before school) has consequences. This obviously causes further meltdowns.

They are having sessions with a counsellor and at family centre. She has been helpful in helping them understnad him a bit more but the behaviour continues.

I feel he must have ADHD or something. I am v. experienced with children and maybe a lot of what I have described sounds normal, but trust me, it's not.. it's too persistant and prolonged. It's as if he can't stop himself behaving this way. BF mentioned ADHD to the GP before he referred them to the counsellor but he said no because he doesn't do it at school. (I know at least one other parent with an older child with diagnosed ADHD who is far far better behaved at school than at home.)

My mum is convinced (since seeing something on TV) that it is some kind of autism, but I know enough about autism to know that it is far more than just difficult behaviour.

Can any of you offer any thoughts?

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Countingthegreyhairs · 08/01/2008 10:13

Oh sorry, posted before reading bit about him being bright ShinyHappy

Countingthegreyhairs · 08/01/2008 10:16

oh and the way he goes around "looking" for things to get upset about could indicate boredom too perhaps???

ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 08/01/2008 10:20

Thank CtGH but yes he is v.bright and BF puts lots into acitivties and doing fun things with the children (she puts me to shame! ;)) and always has. He will start swimming club later in the year and she is also trying to get him into a martial arts type group as soon as his old enough to try and positively channel some of the aggression.

His playstation and TV time are limited.. and for him, limited more at times because of the need to make him see that his behaviour has consequences. And they spend lots of time encouraging him to do educational things, some from school, some that his parents provide at home, which he will or will not do depending on his mood.

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ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 08/01/2008 10:22

Well if he is "bored" I can't imagine why.. he has lots to do and they are constantly offering him fun activities.

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yurt1 · 08/01/2008 10:27

Shiny- do you know what I'd do in their situation - I'd actually look up and employ for a couple of sessions a behavioural therapist- by which I mean an ABA consultant. I'd look for one who would allow me to perhaps send some video as well as observe- and I'd ask them to look and see what they thought about the interactions.

When we did the Growing Minds programme we had to send in 2 hours of video of ds1 doing various things but they made loads of helpful comments about (NT but blasted stroppy) ds3.

They've also been great at picking up when I'm reinforcing dodgy behaviours. So for example with ds1 repeatedly pinching - the conversation went something like ' and how do you stop him grabbing your neck, I'm betting you might grab his wrists' 'me -er yes- I grab them and push them away' - he pointed out that wrist squeezing is something that lots of autistic children adore so I was unintentionally reinforcing the behaviour. I know your friend's ds is almost certainly not on the autistic spectrum but a good ABA consultant should be really good at spotting odd reinforcement and picking apart a challenging interaction.

HonoriaGlossop · 08/01/2008 10:32

hmm...it's still possible he's bored though - it's still just home to him perhaps....despite huge input from parents..there IS no pleasing some kids!

If they are taking TV and playstation time away as punishment/consequences then I still think power struggle COULD be an element here. I mean, it is possible not to introduce this sort of sanction. I'm not saying this at all to criticise, only to say that I think 4 is young to have this sort of sanction. At this age if a child is doing something naughty i think it can be dealt with by removing the child from the situation for perhaps a few minutes 'time out' - and that's it dealt with. Kids of 4 need IMO immediate consequences which relate to the incident. Removing TV time that day IMHO can make the child feel angry and resentful and that then comes out as soon as they next relate to the parent.

I am still just throwing ideas out there; I would be interested to know the outcome. Because I can imagine that this could totally go either way; either it can be purely behavioural and deal-able with by new strategies, but I can equally imagine it being something the Paed would diagnose! BTW Shiny you sound like a very supportive friend, your BF is lucky to have you!

yurt1 · 08/01/2008 10:36

I'd really recommend Karen Pryors book- Don't Shoot the Dog as well as a way of understanding reinforcement and a way of changing difficult behaviours. It will help whether totally NT or some sort of SN.

mimsum · 08/01/2008 11:42

Shiny - the more you say about him, the more he sounds like ds1's younger twin (iyswim!)

ds1 can be absolutely charming - he's very bright, funny, you always know he's in the room (and I mean that in a good way as well as a bad way) - it also helps that he's a very good-looking child - curly blond hair, big blue eyes, cheeky grin - and that means people (teachers etc) forgive him more easily than if he weren't (a friend of mine's ds has some similar behaviour, not quite so extreme, but because he's not very physically attractive and not so bouncy he doesn't get such good feedback from adults)

In some ways it's got better since he was 4, and in some ways worse

he started going to swimming club when he was 7 - we weren't sure if it would work because of his contrariness, but something just clicked and he loves it - he's now swimming competitively and doing really well - it's great to channel all that energy into something physical and also means that he's doing masses of exercise which he really needs, plus he enjoys the rhythm and feel of the water - helps calm him down - so if your friend can find something her son can really throw himself into that might help

for us, medication has helped alhtough I know that's not a route everyone is happy going down - we had lots of soul-searching before we did

fwiw, when I first read about ODD I thought that ds1 unfortunately ticked loads of the boxes - however, it's not something any of the health professionals who've worked with ds has ever floated as a possiblity

Countingthegreyhairs · 08/01/2008 11:56

Oh perhaps not boredom then, sorry was just throwing out suggestions ...

I hope your bf manages to get some answers soon. All I know for sure is that 4.5 is the most challenging age yet!!

ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 09/01/2008 11:13

I've got the book Yurt, re DS1 - I think Moondog recommended it.. am ashamed to say I've barely glanced at it yet!

So I could lend it to BF..

Mims, K is blonde, blue-eyed and angelic looking too Which is strange because he parents aren't!

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