Oh help I just want to CRY!

[ScruffyTeddy]

I really want to sort this out for the new year. DD (aged 4) is wearing me out.

Im a lone parent and im working full time. Im trying to keep a nice clean house and get organised now but im at my wits end with dd.

She cannot leave anything alone. I cant cook a meal or go to the loo without coming back to find the living room trashed in some way. I know what you'll say...a four year old cant be sneaky but she is and my nerves are frayed. Examples? say I have a hot pan on the oven that has to be stirred, dd wants a drink "just a second" I say..I turn my back and she's run off with the juice, poured herself a drink and its all over the floor. She'll sit at the breakfast bar to eat her cereal and decide it hasn't enough milk. I made the fatal mistake of going to the loo, I came back to find her with an empty 2 pint container, worktop overflowing, milk running down the wall and all across the floor. She'll take anything she can get her hands on and draw...on ornaments, the walls, the windows...I took her crayons away and so she did it with a candle instead.

She goes into the fridge, gets out food, unwraps it and drags it around the floor. I waste so much money every week throwing food away because of this. Or she'll go to the loo (through the kitchen) and suddenly i'll find her feeding a brand new packet of ham to the cats.

I'll find her "washing up", with a whole bottle of washing up liquid and water everywhere, sopping wet clothes.

Everything I touch these days is sticky or coated with some mystery substance. I am FED UP with cleaning and telling her no. My house is a tip because I cant keep up with her.

I know how it sounds, and please dont tell me I should keep a better eye on her because when you're a single parent that just isn't physically possible at times. Mostly im in the next room to her anyway with an open door and she still manages it. (the rooms in our house all sort of run from the next, we have no hallways, she's not allowed upstairs on her own). Im tired physically, more tired emotionally. Within seconds she can quietly cause mayhem.

She's stubborn and argumentative and will not listen. I sat her down with her brother just before Christmas and told them both how we need to be tidy etc blah blah, she laughed at me the whole way through. She's prone to tantrums and shouting also. Every morning I go to work in a stinking mood because she will refuse to get dressed, or even get out of bed..starts screaming at her brother etc, makes me late for work. I cook them meals and she will refuse to eat..things I know she eats at nursery, then she'll try and steal from my plate and scream when I refuse. Mostly it goes in the bin. I parent her in exactly the same way as I did her brother and yet he's always been helpful and generally lovely.

Sorry for the rant...im so unhappy with the situation and really at a loss.

Sorry you're having such a tough time, it sounds awful. Like DS2 (who's 3) multiplied by 100.
It does sound like it could be attention seeking behaviour but not sure what you could do about it if your hands are already full.
Could you try not reacting to the bad behaviour at all, hard though it might be, and only react to the good? I know DS2 does a lot of the naughty things he does because he likes to get a reaction.
Sorry, this probably isn't much help.

You have my sympathy. I have an 8 year old DS who is like this.

He does not refuse to get dressed or anything and does love going to school and he can eat for England but some of the other stuff he does.

Some people say he is trying to help. We give him little jobs to do which I have to admit does work so he feels that he has a certain responsibility.

You cannot keep your eye on them 24/7 and I know you must feel worn out 'cos I do.

Sometimes it is not so much the stuff he does but the shouting and tantrums can just be so soul destroying and it makes me want to cry.

Try giving her a couple of "jobs" to do like setting the table or even if you put a small amount of ready mixed squash into a jug and ask her to do the drinks?

I wish you well and don't know what else to suggest - apart from I have a fab book called Beyond Toddlerdom by Christopher Green. It makes a lot of sense and I could just be reading about my own DS. If you would like it, I will send it to you? It just might give you a few suggestions.

Really, really sorry for you Teddy. (I bet you're not as scruffy as me!) I remember this phase with my own and even though not a single parent, still found it really to hard to keep up with them. My make up ground into the carpet, food all over the place, liquids spilt, walls scrawled on, poos and wees in inappropriate places......

I may think of some magic solution to your problem later, but at the moment all I can say is you are right to be fed up, this is very hard and it's not your fault.

Is her father on the scene at all? If so, what is his take on the situation?

Right then....here's my advice! Sorry if it comes across as abrupt but I'm just being honest.

I think she is misbehaving to get your attention. You give her that attention when she's naughty - in the form of you telling her off. Whilst she can't continue trashing the place etc - you must make sure that certain items (washing up liquid, crayons, food, milk etc etc) are all well out of her reach.

How was she able to get the juice whilst you were getting something out of the oven? You have to be on your guard, have eyes in the back of your head and think ahead - ie you need to get something out of the oven - make sure anything she may be able to grab in the meantime that'll make a mess is out of her reach. You've got to try and read her little mind!

My DD has drawn on the wall before - its nothing new with youngsters - she has helped herself to the contents in the fridge and she gets told not to - but do they listen? No. Because they are only 4yrs old.

You cannot expect a child of 4yrs old to 'tidy up'. But, whilst I'm not blaming you, you have got to pre-empt what she may be sizing up, planning on what to destroy, make a mess with that may ruin something and take those items fully out of her reach.

In my house ornaments are either up high or put away, crayons are on the top shelf of a dresser, the crisps or any food that is 'grabbable' is put away out of her reach etc.

I'm not saying you should 'keep a better eye on her' but I think you need to re-organise your home so that those items that are a definite 'no-no' are not within her reach.

Should she do something naughty - tell her a firm 'NO!' and put her on the stairs for 4 minutes. Don't talk to her whilst she's sat there - ask for an apology - should you get it ask her why she's apologising (so she knows why she was put there) and praise her. Then just carry on as normal.

All I can think of is locks on the fridge, cupboards, etc. She sounds full of determination.

Good post, Whispywisp.

Good advice whispy

i agree that it sounds attention seeking. How old is your son? is there any chance you could spend some one to one time with her at weekends.. go to cinema or something? it does sound like v hard work at the mo for you. Lots of positive praise even if she doesn't really deserve it. Tell her you love her lots and say what she does well.. there are positives in what she is doing as she sounds very self sufficient! Maybe encourage her self sufficiently but get her to practice how to pour milk for exmaple with better care..My dd also four barely does anything for herself.. whines at me to do things for her constantly but hats another thread!

How about telling her the next time she destroys something of hers, you will destroy something of hers? And stick to it. Chose something cheap but favoured, like playdoh (into the bin) or crayons (into the bin) and make sure she is watching. I know it sounds really harsh, but it has been the only way I have been able to drill into my four year old that breaking my things is just not funny. He doesn't care when I cry about it, but he started caring when breaking my things resulted in a loss of his own things, and he has become markedly less destructive since.

I have utter empathy, by the way. My childless friend referred to my 2 boys as "a destruction tag team" the other day (mainly because of ds2, i suspect).

Thank you! I'm only talking from experience having a 4yr old myself! They're blinking hard work! She can be so defiant - no reasoning with her and she stomps off at the slightest thing BUT I ignore her....I grit my teeth, count to ten and walk away. Otherwise she'll carry on because she's got my attention and in her little world she's won!

Can you "babyproof" your house again? Fridge locks etc? If something is breakable then put it where she can't reach it or put it away for the duration. If she can rifle through the fridge at will and nothing happens except you shout at her a bit, then really she's got no reason to stop doing it. Re the Tantrums, read some Christopher Green, he's great. Tantrums are a performance - if she hasn't got an audience then she may think twice. Sorry if this is no help but this is what I do with a 2.5 DS and she sounds like she is behaving exactly the way he would if he could!

Sympathies. My 2.7yo is quite like this but he's 2.7 so it seems more par for the course (plus he's easier to manhandle when I really need him to get dressed etc. ).
Sounds like she likes to do things herself... I second the suggestion of getting her small, unbreakable jugs with lids for juice, milk etc., bxes for fruit/snacks - they are her boxes/jugs etc.
Involve her in cleaning up when she makes a mess - even if the results are not good. It may seem like part of the game at first, but she will begin to find it very tedious.
Anything she's likely to get at as far away as possible from where she can reach. A child catch on the fridge and a pointed remark aboput how she's such a little girl who can't be trusted?
Is everything OK at nursery? At home? Any difficult situation or big changes? How's her attention span?

Thanks

Ive tried everything. She's an intelligent little girl..I thought reasoning may work (in a simply set out way or course) nope. Naughty step, witholding treats, giving her a certain amount of choice, more attention blah blah.

Ds we think is dyspraxic and finds it difficult to follow instructions, he's 10 and a lovely child but lost in his own world much of the time and he just wouldn't think to alert me that she's up to something, he rarely notices.

I feel bad about myself, am tired and run down..bags under my eyes and constantly catching every bug that's around. I am stressed! I want to make positive changes to how we run our lives. I want us to be happy as a little family unit. I want some order and some routine and to get myself healthy too but it seems impossible.

Oh hang on...cross posted in a major way. Give me a sec to read all your replies

My little sister was like this and it drove me (the bossy responsible one) up the wall, never mind my poor mother!

Agree is attention seeking. V hard when you are on your own but can you work out any ways to give her positive attention? I know you must be knackered when you get in from work, but can you have five or ten minutes of story telling, or chatting about the day while she 'helps' you get dinner or whatever it is?

Scrummy is right about giving her jobs to do and Whispy's right about putting all potentially dangerous stuff out of reach.

Although I say that as the owner of a sofa covered in biro and felt tip, courtesy of my own dear ds...

I think 3/4/5 is an odd age, they (might) get reasoning but it's often overridden by lack of impulse control. You need to move stuff out of her way (incl toys etc that she could make a mess with - those she has to ask you for each time, which she will hate, so it might work as an incentive).

How about a star chart or similar, not losing anything but earning a star for each day/half day she doesn't make a mess, does get up and ready nicely, etc.?

Really choke back the cries of dismay at her latest mess/tantrum. Deal with it matter-of-factly - 'oh dear, not again, time to clean up' (handing her a cloth).

At four years old most kids are inquisitive, nosy, demanding, investigating everything - they have this easy knack of pushing their parents to the limit - they love it when they get their own way (ie when we give in) - they love to win a dispute and they absolutely love their parent's attention...which is normally given when they've been naughty.

Be naughty = get attention by virtue of 'one to one' telling off.
Be good = 'oh that's good' or 'good girl' whilst Mum is busy doing something else.

Don't leave things in her path that she can get her hands on and cause chaos with. Lock things away. Put them out of reach. Think ahead.

After all if you leave washing up liquid within her reach you can hardly tell her off for making a mess with it, can you?

Ok so many questions

The house is as babyproof as I can make it.

Ornaments are well out of reach and mainly minimalist. She will drag the mop bucket..anything to reach something she wants. Ditto the kitchen...she uses the handle on the cooker door to climb on the worktops. I will haul her off if im quick enough.

She's not totally horrible, she will do little jobs for me as ds does so ive got that covered.

The juice story...I turned back to the oven and she ran off with the juice and poured it undiluted into her cup (and everywhere else).

I chain the front door, always, so she cant run out. Sharp objects are hidden. Snacks are on top of the kitchen wall cupboards, fridge locks are useless and have been ripped straight off.

She has plenty of praise, plenty of love just as her brother did at that age and continues to have.

My friends actually laugh at me because everything is so well out of reach in my house. Its a standing joke!

The dad question, he left when I was pg and has never wanted to know her sadly so no input from him!

Ds is great but he does leave things around, craft glue etc and she has a radar for that kind of stuff.

We do have time for chats, stories etc.

Washing up liquid could only be on the worktop behind the sink or in the cupboard under the sink...if I put it on top of the wall cupboard she would still seek it out. Really .

My house is not cluttered, its mucky because of dd, no other reason.

I cannot stand mess, or clutter (just for myself) it would drive me up the wall. So everything does have a place and is usually in it.

'I cannot stand mess' - ahhhh. She's picking on The Thing Guaranteed To Wind You Up Most Of All. Think not showing wound-up-ness is key.

lol! I dont mind played with toys kind of mess that can be cleared up before bed, but I dont want a sticky, filthy house with milk/juice etc over the walls/floor.

Message withdrawn

Can you get her to do things with you? So if you're cooking get her to 'cook'too? etc it's attention seeking imo too and this would help.

Maybe thats it! That could be what im missing Pitchounette. She really wants to do things for herself, I try to stop her and she does it anyway when im not looking. So I should maybe teach her the right way to do whatever it is then set rules to follow and limit the damage!

She is very independant, we lock horns constantly. You could have a real point there.

Perhaps the other stuff (food issues) will get easier...its worth a try.

when ds1 was four he always wanted to get his own breakfast, pour the milk, juice etc and of course he'd end up spilling a 2 litre bottle of milk everywhere

we stopped it by putting a suitably sized portion of cereal in a packet and leaving a small jug of milk in the fridge - he got the satisfaction of doing something independently, but if it all went pear-shaped there wasn't a huge puddle on the floor - plus the constant practice meant he got good at pouring pretty quickly so fairly soon we could leave him to it

dd went through a washing-up phase last year (at 4 - god it's hard work that age isn't it!) and again we got through it by letting her wash up - plastic plates and cups, towels on the floor - she lost interest after a while and I suspect I'll never get any of them to wash up ever again

it is also v frustrating when parenting techniques which work for one child don't work for another - ds2 is (mostly) really well-behaved and compliant - you ask him to do something and he'll just say "ok" and toddle off and do it - unfortunately he's sandwiched in between ds1 and dd neither of whom seem to be able to pass up on the offer of a possible confrontation ...