Unprovoked 'attacks' on other toddlers

[MichaelsMum]

I'm hoping this is just a phase but I would really appreciate any other mums' advice or experiences on this one. I took ds (2 years 8 months) to a party last weekend and for an hour and a half all I was doing was intervening when he had pounced on unsuspecting other children, either pulling them to the ground or trying to grab their clothes. He also pushed children down the slide before they were ready. None of the other toddlers were behaving so badly and I was acutely embarrassed and apologetic to all the victims' mums and dads who were probably horrified (I know I would be if a child suddenly laid into ds for no reason).

At nursery on Monday morning I told them about it and asked whether he was doing it there too and was shocked to find out that he has been like that since June or so when he went up from the 'Tots' class. I had seen him 'go for' another child when dropping him off but assumed it was part of the reaction of me leaving him there (he cries when I go) and didn't think that he was doing it all the time - a total nightmare of a child (not to us of course but for the helpers and the parents of his victims). This morning we'd had a happy drive to nursery and he seemed keen to go for a change but as soon as he got into the room, he ran over to a little girl sitting on a chair and pulled it over so that she bumped her head. I was mortified and took him out straight away to talk to him, but his language isn't as advanced as the other children so it's hard to reason with him. He doesn't seem to see it as wrong or naughty. They brought the little girl out to us and ds was quite happy to kiss her better - his temporary blip had completely gone. He is very loving and affectionate with mum and dad but he just doesn't seem socialised with other children. The nursery are keeping a close eye on him and reporting back to me more (perhaps they were protecting me before?) but I'd love to know what is causing this behaviour.

I wonder if it's linked to something he does at home which is violently reject something for a few seconds (dinner gets pushed across the table, the push chair gets overturned etc.) and then almost immediately comply (eg he'll sit up and eat nicely or get into his push chair)?

I don't have much experience on this and I'm sure there's a trend to believe that for every kind of behaviour there's an obscure reason lurking inside us causing it, which may be true in some cases... BUT, I wouldn't go into this sort of thinking unless I have tried normal practices such as teaching him that all his actions carry consequences.

If he is constantly bullying other children he (and you as well) are likely to end up very isolated. However, as you said, he is very young for reasoning and wouldn't be able to see the big picture so, I would take an "action-consequences" approach. For example, if he pushes other child in the park, tell him off, remind him that if he does it again you will leave the park, and do as you said. If his action is over the top/likely to cause much damage I would remove him from the place immediatly.

Hope that helps

Thanks Chandra. Yes, I'm worried about him turning in to a bully as he's big for his age and so at present it's easy for him to get the better of his peers. The problem is that at home and at the weekend we don't meet other children his age so I can't 'train' him as such. Anyway now, I'd be a lot more hesitant to take him to a park or other place where he'd meet unknown children in case he does something hurtful to a younger child. He seems to leave older children alone...

My friend?s little girl does this and has done for a while. She is a lovely little girl and has great parents who are both mortified when she suddenly and inexplicably lashes out at other children. I think this sort of thing is surprisingly common and for many it tends to be a phase that you just need to try and control and do damage limitation, reinforcement that it is wrong etc. and hope it goes away. Very difficult when it is a young chil, esp. when they are happy beforehand so have little/no warning and that they are so happy to say sorry but the message just doesn?t sink in. I can really sympathise
I am amased your nursery has left it this long to inform you - even if they believe it is not serious and that it is just a phase/nothing you can do, it is irresponsible not to have let you know of this behaviour as it has gone on for so long.
I reckon some children grow out of this when their communication skills develop better and they are able to express their emotions through words and better control of their feelings rather than using spontaneous physical "expression" IYKWIM. I don?t think it is any coincidence that he was doing this at a party or at nursery - places where he could easily become overexcited and have a bit of "brain overload" resulting in this instinctive behaviour rather than "learnt" social behaviour. The animal brain theory that loads of child pyschologists like to go on about - ie. very difficult for parents/carers to deal with as there is little thought going into this type of reaction - almost knee jerk spur of the moment way of communicating their need to interact with the other child and doing so in such a crude but lets face it effective attention seeking way. What I am trying to say but very badly as it is so early/late in the morning is that I reckon there is nothing mallicious about it and not thought through, just a small child behaving normally in an excited way with limited grasp of verbal communication and so communicating through a more instinctive and basic way. I doubt there is any real worry that he will be become a "violent" child or that this will be a long term issue. Monitor it, ask the nursery to give you regular updates and I bet that it will start to improve as soon as his language skills and social skills start to mature and develop.
HTH - sorry if it is just a load of tosh, tired and have toothache (hence up at this time)

The reason that he does this with younger children and not older ones may not be that he is deliberately picking on younger/same age kids in a bullying kind of way but more that older children can have the upper hand in these situations and that can take away the control from your child and to them - so that he is taking the lead from them and thinking about what they are doing/saying more than himself and his own instinctive need to communicate/react which will give that buffer and help stop him just lashing out. Also, an older child will have the language skills and body language to pyschologically bridge that frustration at not being able to communicate an emotion/simple hello and remove the need for a "physical hello" from your child by providing the acknowledgement of each other for them both. Hope that makes sense, I know what i mean to write but struggling to put it in words and sentences...going to try and sleep again.

From experience of working in a nursery lots of children do this and i think normally as they grow older and more able to fully communicate/and socialise they stop doing it, so long as the staff deal with it appropriately.

I think there are two reasons for doing it, one is to gain some attention if hes doing it upon arrival its screaming "Hello i've arrived!!" and also its a not knowing what to do sort of reaction. Maybe when he's bored, or wants someone to play with him but doesn't know how to instigate it, he'll shove someone so that an adult comes over and organises an activity for him.

The best thing to do is give as little attention as poss, just quietly explain he shouldn't do it and ask him to say sorry and then carry on as if nothing happened. And ask the staff to do the same so it is consistent.

My dd is only just 2 and does the same with younger friends she has that come to play. It is mortifying when you feel other parents are tutting or judging you as a parent. But i think more often than not thats in my mind and really most people understand.

Bless, what little angels!!!!

Saw Baby whisperer dealing with this on discovery channel, small boy kept battering his mates, everytime he did it, she sat down with him immediately, where ever they were until he acknowledged what he'd done wrong and calmed down, then she made him say sorry, then she made the mother do it, I seem to remember it took about 2 weeks for the message to get thru to him, but he stopped battering in the end.

I wish the baby whisperer would sort out my friends little boy, he has been like this for a long time now (he's about 2.8). He is a lovely little boy but the first thing he does when he sees dd2 is push her over. She now doesn't like to be anywhere near him (a shame as she used to really like him). He always hits children at playgroup and woe betide any kids that try to take toys away from him, he really goes for them. She (his mum) is not in the least bit strict with him - she does say 'no!' but it is completely ineffectual.

Michaels mum, are you sure you are strict enough? I know if this was dd1 or 2, I would sit them down or take them to one side IMMEDIATELY and make them say sorry/give a hug to the other child. You say he doesnt seem to see it as wrong or naughty - I think it is up to you to teach him that it is wrong to do this.

You do have my sympathies though - my friend's son is becoming increasingly isolated from his peers because of this behaviour which is a great shame.

I think that this is a phase and I dont think that you should worry. I think that as long as you deal with this behaviour now that he will grow out of it. There are somethings to do. I think perhaps you should take him out when you are feeling calm to an area with other children (perhaps a soft play area) and do a 'practice'. Be there to guide him, show him how to play nicely and watch how he reacts to the other children. If he starts to get heavy handed intervene and take him to one side and tell him off calmly and when he plays nicely praise him.

I know that it sounds silly, but behaviour is learnt and if you do some trial runs and teach him how to behave it might help.

My ds is of a similar age to yours and can be quite excitable around other children, but I find it easier to control him now that I have a plan iyswim. I have really worked hard teaching him how to interact.

Also if I think that I am out (at a kids party or something) and ds is tired and getting physical and not playing nicely I take that as a queue to leave. I would recommend the baby whispers book for toddlers - very good. She focuses on the fact that toddlers are just little people learning social interaction and that they cant help the way that they display their emotions. They just need training. so dont worry.

michaelsmum, maybe I read it wrong, but I've understood from your post that he is in nursery full time, and that when he's at home with you he has little contact with other kids? If so, I'd think you need to do 2 things

1. make sure you know how the nursery are dealing with this behaviour & are happy with it.
2. you make more of an effort to see other kids at w/e rather than avoiding it, so you can also have the opportunity to deal firmly with this behaviour. if he's not told be his parents it won't be as effective imo.

And I would worry aboout it tbh., esp if he is bigger than his peers. I know quite a few kids, all bigger than their peers who behave like this, & only 1 parent seems to take it semi seriously & i worry about these kids now & how they're gonna be when even bigger/older. Even if he can't speak well doesn't mean he can't understand. A 1 year old can understand 'no'.

How do you parents deal with it when your child is the victim of an unprovoked attack? eg last night my ds (3) was riding his bike when he was roughly pushed off it by a boy, who had been egged on to do it by a girl, both aged 3. I spoke to the kids & just got a gob full from the girl I spoke to her mum who had a very wooly chat with her & she of course lied & said she had nothing to do with it. a neighbour had witnessed the whole thing. would you have spoken to the parent? My dh thinks I was wrong to say anything

I didn't mean that he can't understand, but he won't have the social skills, to always get what he wants, request what he wants etc. So children in many different ways will do what they know gets attention. In Michaelsmums case, her ds shoves people, other children may shout, go quiet, throw something on the floor, tug at the nearest adults trouser legs ....they all do something!

So the best thing is to not make too much of a fuss, just quietly say don't do that, and ask him to apologise.

Thanks so much Stripymouse (sorry about the toothache!), Fran1, Frizbe, Enid, joanneg and Ernest - it really means a lot to have all this helpful, thoughtful, sympathetic input. It sounds like the Baby Whisperer book would be a good one to put on my Christmas list You were spot on Ernest to guess the situation - I work full time and ds is an only (much longed and waited-for) child. I haven't really thought about needing to interact with children at the weekend because I'd assumed that he was getting enough of that at nursery, but I agree that some 'training' from mum and dad with how to treat children his age can only help.
Over the months that this must have been going on I have had occasional messages from the nursery about his behaviour ('he's been pushing the smaller children so we sat him out for a while' sort of thing) but I had no idea it wasn't one-off each time. In fact it seemed that he was really popular with the other children as for a while in September when I was dropping him off, some of his class mates used to come up and try to kiss him or hug him (he always looked a bit non-plussed!). One boy even persisted after being pushed away and managed to plant a smacker on his cheek. I was touched and happy that he was in such a lovely group - all the more horrible to find out how he is repaying all this affection. One of the really advanced boys (only a month older but fully conversational!) came up and had a chat that started 'I like Michael' and ended up asking if he could come in my car and visit our house! It did occur to me that he's a bit scared of all this attention (sometimes they crowd round looking up at him) and doesn't know how to deal with it nicely. Whenever I've been there when he does it I've immediately confronted him with it and told him off and instigated a Big Hug to make up (we once had two or three other little girls lining up to join in!) which he happily complies with. However the majority of incidences must be when I'm not there - I've only just realised how much he does this.
Unfortunately he now is beginning to react against going to nursery - reluctant to put coat on, reluctant to get in the car and today looked up at me tearfully as he recognised where we were as we arrived and semi-sobbed 'No' - heart breaking. I wish I didn't have to work and as both DH and I had full time mums it's sort of worrying that we can't compare our happy childhoods with ds who is having such a different experience.

Anyway I'm relieved to hear that it might be fairly common. We'll try not to make too big a thing of it while making it clear that it is not acceptable (he went through a biting phase with dh and me and now knows that that is wrong - or perhaps he just grew out of it?). At home he's really very good, plays well, eats well, goes to bed without a fuss, sleeps all night - so much to be thankful for!

well... I won't say anything further...

Chandra - I agree with you re Action:consequence. My friends little boy is becoming a real terror for this sort of behaviour. His mum is great in that she jumps on this behaviour instantly, however, she calmly explains that this is wrong and he musn't do it - and he does exactly the same thing about 15 minutes later. I know that all children are different but some really don't respond to the calm, explanation approach - and IMO need to be warned and then removed from the situation i.e. 'you do that one more time and we are going home' - and actually follow through. The consequence unfortunatly of this continued behaviour is a reluctance to spend time with this other child (it seems harsh but as a parent you also want to protect your own child from repeated behaviour such as this). Anyway - thats my two penneth for what its worth.

MichaelsMum - sorry you are going through this it can be really frustrating bringing up a toddler can't it? I'm sure its a phase too, but one thought that occurred to me is: has he had a hearing test recently. My sister's DS was like this and it turned out he had an ear problem, was getting so frustrated at not being able to hear/communicate properly he was lashing out. He had grommits put in and the problem was solved. Just a thought, but if my toddler is anything to go buy, I'm sure with the right guidance he'll stop doing this.

That's really interesting Tatcity because he DOES have glue ear and we're awaiting a ENT appointment to assess whether grommets would be a good idea. I'd related his hearing loss to his slow development in language (which is fine really and may have nothing to do with his ears - but I've got an academic interest in language and so have been watching his language development carefully) but didn't think about whether it might affect his behaviour too. Thanks for the thought!
BTW dh isn't keen on putting in grommets as it requires a general anaesthetic and the risk which that carries might be worse than a certain amount of temporary hearing loss. However your report of improved behaviour with a grommet in will now be an added consideration. cheers.

MM my DS had general anaesthetic for an ENT procedure when he was 4-5m old, he is fine. There were other babies at the guard with the same condition (some even as young as 6 weeks) and they were OK. They use a paediatric anastheticist for the procedures so you can be asured that the administered dose is the correct one.

I have a hearing problem and believe me, not being able to communicate is far worse than what you can imagine (well imagine you have been left alone in a country where you don't understand the language and you are trying to find out what on Earth everything means... such event would cause the same levels of frustration but it is far worse in a hearing condition as the problem doesn't go away). Good luck, hope he doesn't have it but if a procedure could alleviate the problem is worth checking.

Left this thread for a while but quite a lot has happened meanwhile. About 10 days ago I found out from the nursery that the SENCO assessor had been in (a couple of the staff are doing a course in Special Educational Needs) and has observed Michael and was giving them advice about ways to deal with it. She apparently suggested I ask my Health Visitor and coincidentally I has a routine visit scheduled for that week.

Unfortunately it was a 'bank' HV as the regular one was away for 6 weeks but she was really nice and listened to everything carefully. She offered to refer ds to the local hospital where they can do a two week in-depth assessment (he goes in for 2 weeks and various experts observe him playing and with other children). I gulped as this all seems so serious but I reckoned that all assessment should be helpful and so agreed. She also said he could go on the Speech and Language therapy waiting list although there was a long wait for that... so now he's waiting for three appointments (ENT, behaviour and SLT).

To my horror though on Friday the owner of the nursery wanted a chat and the main upshot of it was praise of ritalin . She's from South Africa and apparently they prescribe it a lot there and in the USA but they're "so slow here' she says. She didn't buy my suggestion that he's going through a phase of missing mum desperately (he's been there a year already) - but then she wouldn't want me to worry about that of course!

Behaviour wise things seem to be about the same - he'll react violently and immediately relent like today he pulled a little boy backwards off his chair and immediately was happy to give him a big hug. I can't fathom why he's doing this yet and am waiting for the above appointments quite eagerly. I really hope it turns out to be something physical like his ears as I don't think he has a problem that needs drugs - he's really fine and 'well' behaved at home and at the weekend (no other kids).

Oh michaels mum, that nursery manager sounds awful!!

I do believe in ritalin, as i have experience of several families with children with adhd, and have witnessed before and after effects of ritalin.

But to suggest it for your son is outragious!!

I hope the assessments have gone well (if they have already happened) and that you are on a positive road.

I would gently suggest to the nursery that they need to ensure he is well enough stimulated by his activities at nursery, if it is still the case that this is not happening at home.

Agree completely with Fran1. My 5 year old autistic boy does this (with adults luckily) as a means of getting a response/attention. As he's autistic he doesn't understand the difference between a cross response or a laughing one- for him its one big joke which leads to lots of people giving him attention.

After witnessing a few incidents in school I sent in a behavioural plan for him - there responses were reinforcing the behaviour as they were shouting "no" at him. He was then pinching in order to hear someone say "no". I told them to keep the response very neutral, to vary it a bit (but always neutral) and to either turn him away, giving no eye contact, or to say something like " Name nice hands" firmly but neutrally. It improved a lot in school after everyone adopted this approach.

At home we take it one step further at times and remove him from the room, shut the door briefly for about 10 seconds. Most of the time that works well (although if overused it becomes funny to him again).

oh missed the update- sorry!