My 3 1/2 year old's behavious is deteriorating - if there is anyone who has sucessfully dealt with IGNORING and DISOBEDIENCE I would really, really appreciate your help.

[Astrophe]

Its been getting worse for months now, and is really taking its toll on the family as DH and I are running out of patience with DD, and snapping at each other

I really need some help to see the problem clearly - you know when you get trapped up inside and can't see what the issues really are?

I don't even know if she is ignoring deliberately or if she has a concentration problem or...? In every other way she is fine - seems to be able to hear if I offer her some chocolate!

I am trying to give her positive attention, focus on how kind and funny and lovely she can be, thank her and praise her when she does listen...but what do I do when I ask her to do a simple task and she doesn't even show a flicker of recognition, or, if I make her look at me and acknowledge what I've said, she will agree to it and then either ignore the request or do the opposite?

The only way to get her do to anything is to shout at her. I hate it.

I really am at my wits end. DH and I need to come up with a strategy that WILL work, because we are both so discouraged and are really losing it with her. I feel so crap - today I heard myself say something I swore I would never say: "What is WRONG with you!!???"

This is my little girl, who can be so sweet and so funny, and is bright and energetic, and friendly and loving, and who I wanted to be the best Mum in the world to...and I feel like I am losing her, and losing myself to a horrible, nasty woman who shouts all the time

No advice but my 3 1/2 yr old is exactly the same. I just feel like I'm a witch that shouts at him all the time

nice to know its not just me then haribo ( Have you found anything helps?

have you tried making it into a game?
if I want ds1 to do something and he is unwilling then we try and make it more fun.
so if we're clearing up then I might ask him if he can find all the red toys and put them in a basket and stuff like that.

You've done really well if you're still trying to be the best mum in the world. I gave that idea up after 6 weeks and I have to say, lowering my sights saved my sanity. I think we have to accept we just do the best job we can.

I (try to) avoid shouting by using a variation of the naughty step (already mentioned on here tonight, so sorry for repeating).

We call it thinking time and at the first sign of tempers getting frayed ( or sometimes, after a count of 3 depending on the situation), the DS has to go for thinking time. We don't have a specified place and it could be in the same room, provided they look like they're thinking about what they've done wrong. Once things have calmed down, they have to tell me what they did wrong and (depending on their age) what they should have done instead.

I don't know, but it seems more positive to me to have them talk about it rather than just go off to a naughty step. Once they know that if they don't behave they will be doing time, it just takes the threat and I probably only have to use it about once a month. They really hate the talking out part.

I have changed it to suit us but it is based on something I read in a book called 1-2-3 Magic, Effective Disicpline for Children 2-12 by Thomas W Phelan.

I will watch the other responses with interest.

fingerwoman, I guess thats something i used to do more of. I didn't mind doing it when it was just the odd times she disobeyed, but now it is about 90% of the time. It is just so incredibly wearing, trying to jolly her along to go downstairs, eat her breakfast, sit on her chair, get her sock on, get her other sock on, get her top on, get her trousers on...honestly, everything is a battle. It seems rediculous that a child of this age requires this sort of coaxing. I am not a really strict parent, but I do think its reasonable to expect to be able to say "come on DD, you need to get dressed now" and have her comply. Am I being stupid to think this?

Apostrophe you are right it is so tiring. We went through this with my ds at around age 4, coinciding with when he started school.

It was awful, I actualy disliked him and disliked myself even more because of all the houting and stuff. I think you have to take a deep breat and remember that it will pass. My ds is now a different child, I have no idea why, or what we did exactly, it just sort of got better.

I agree the jolly attitude is exhausting, especially when you are met with resiliance at every step, but ou have to keep it up.

I realised that shouting was doing neither of us any good, so I stopped, I said what I had to say in my normal speaking voice but firmly and I had been shouting but not punishing IYKWIM. There were no consequences to his actions (if you are not dressed we can't go to the library etc) I just shouted and never followed through.

TRy explaining consequences, firmly but calmly. She will get upset and scream but afterwards you can explain why.

It's tough but you will get there.

Good luck

perpetualworrior - actually I don't ave very high standards (you should see my kitchen floor!) I just was reflecting on the high hopes I had as a new Mum, and how sad it is for me to find myself shouting things at DD that I know to be destructive and which I swore I would never say

I think a part of our problem is that we have a hodgepodge of 'techniques', and we need to find one thing that works and stick with it. In the past we have used a combination of distracting/jollying along, time out, rewards (usually just praise), talking about expectations and poor behaviour etc. I think this was all fine when she was basicly compliant, but now we have a real discipline problem its not enough.

DrN - thats a good point - that you can say what needs saying without shouting about it. Thanks.

Re the consequences, I think in theory its a good idea, but I find it quite difficult. Result of not getting dressed is not going to nursery, but actually I want her to go! Result of not ceasing squashing/hitting DS is...? Result of not eating dinner is that dinner is taken away, but then she wakes up early because she is hungry! I guess this is where the arbitrary punishment (time out?) come in.

any other thoughts?

It sounds as if you are letting her back you into a corner (which I know from my 3 year old is really easy to do). So instead of saying, if you don't get dressed, you can't go to nursery which she either knows is not realistic or will just get her more upset, can you say something like, if you don't get dressed, you can't choose the music in the car on the way there or something that is less loaded? If she doesn't eat a certain amount (and God knows, I've given up getting my dd to clear her plate but I do insist she tries everything on it) then she can't have yogurt afterwards. No bedtime story is also a handy one .

I really admire people who can do the time out thing - my dd just screams and won't sit where I tell her and the whole thing spirals into a control thing. Try to make it a bit of a last resort and keep "punishments" fairly small but noticeable. Good luck

No advice but I hear you. I've been up and down the stairs 50 times already tonight - HE WILL NOT GO TO SLEEP! At least if I shout it here, I'm not annoying the neighbours by shouting at him. So, so fed up tonight, I feel like running away (dh at work).

The only thing which got my DS out of this was continuing to talk to self/teddy bear/whatever and ignoring him - "Oh well bear, DS doesn't want to get dressed, so we will have to take him to nursery in his jamas. Would you like to wear his clothes instead, bear? Come on then, let's go and choose what you would like to wear / which toy you would like to take to nursery / what we should listen to. What do you think you will play today at nursery, bear? DS won't be able to play if he's not talking to anyone, will he?"

It is incredibly wearing (and you feel a complete prat should anyone hear you!), but eventually DS would giggle and then realise he had lost the battle. Now (aged 5) he has a different annoying habit - he just says "pardon" as a reflex instead of listening. It is incredibly hard to stop yourself automatically repeating the question/request and instead say "No, think about it, you did hear the first time, you just didn't listen"

aaaargh! DD says "What?" or "I'm sorry, what was that?" when she is stalling for time or just doesn't want to listen but knows I will strangle her if she flatly ignores. Cunning little beasts aren't they?

Well, DH has gone to bed exhausted, and I should go to. We will have to plan our strategy another night, but this input has been useful and encouraging, so thanks everyone.

I hate to say it, but this sounds like perfectly normal 3-year-old behaviour to me. What I would do (on a good day!) was simply to take them by the hand and calmly walk them down the stairs if that's where I wanted them to go, or even stuff their arms into the coat if they refused to get dressed (but calmly, not yanking which might suggest a lack of confidence). If they struggled I would just reply perfectly pleasantly 'well, I am the one in command, you know, we can't do a lot about that'. I felt the main points I wanted to make was 'you will end up doing what I've said you are doing' and 'I am so confident I don't even have to bother with getting cross' (I did have to fudge this latter a lot of the time, but it was worth it).
On bad days...well, I wasn't quite so good on those....
But 'I am in command' has become my stock phrase in the family, I still use it (jokingly) to my 11-year-old.