4yr old DS having major tantrum meltdowns whenever I say NO

chocciedooby · 2007-11-26T20:03:38+00:00

His tantrums are lasting about 45 minutes and are mich worse than when he was 2 or 3. Is this normal? He has always been a difficult child and even though I have been strict on discipline and sticking to my guns when I say No, he is relentless. He will push and push until I can't take it anymore. I have to remove him from the room I'm in to give me some time out! Anyone have any advice on how best to deal with these tantrums and how to try and nip it in the bud. Our DS2 (2.6) is starting to watch try to copy DS1's behaviour.

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Othersideofthechannel · 26/11/2007 20:19

DS is 4 and although not particularly difficult is definitely more stubborn and relentless than previous years when he doesn't get his own way. We had a 30 minute melt down today (when he was tired after school) because I wouldn't come and help him look for something when I was busy bathing his sister.
I have not yet found a way of cutting the meltdowns short but the technique of granting wishes in fantasy as outlined in 'how to talk so kids will listen' is helpful in avoiding the meltdown in the first place.

jenjenns · 26/11/2007 20:19

hi there, it sounds like you're doing the best thing by putting him out of the room especially as your little one is trying to copy. My son (nearly 4) starts tantruming and he is told to shush explained why and if he really starts then he is given an option of behaving or bedroom but I always carry it out if he doesnt behave its up to bed with the stairgate (on his bedroom door) shut, this has pretty much nipped it in the bud as he is always made to apologise and if he doesnt then he goes back up again. My friend thinks Im too hard on him but my little poppet (which he really is these days)now hardly gets told off as he knows exactly what is and isnt tolerated
good luck

scoggins · 27/11/2007 19:25

It always gets worse before it gets better - you poor thing listening to shouting and screaming is such hell!!
The only thing to do I find is to ignore completely no eye contact no words, nothing and yes - if it;s getting too much putting him out of the room.
Persistence and consistency are the key!!! and it should soon calm down - 45 minutes one day, 35 minutes the next etc.
WHen he has calmed you must always explain to him why you ignored him and why you put him out of the room so he learns to equate your reaction with his behaviour - this is very important otherwise he won't know what he did clearly that caused you to start ignoring him.
Hope this makes sense
Good luck

Original poster

chocciedooby · 03/12/2007 20:25

Thank you all for your comments. Sorry its been a few days since I originally posted.
DS's behaviour improved for a while and he was like a different child. He was expecially good over the weekend but then it all stated to go downhill again this morning.
I am getting concerned because I have been consistent with discipline but he is still not giving in for over 30 minutes at times!
His tantrums start over the smallest things, for instance if I or anyone else opens the school gate instead of him he starts. If the school door is open when he wants to ring the bell he starts. If the slightest thing is not in the order he wants it to be he starts. He is so particular about things its quite alarming at times.
Is this normal behaviour for a 4 yr old?
My other major concern is that he is getting increasingly violent towards me. He will at times hit repeatedly, say sorry, hit again 5 seconds later, say sorry, hit again....It's so difficult.
He even hit his teacher today and tried to bite her . He refused to apologise to her for well over an hour. He was made to sit in the hallway whilst the rest of the class practised their nativity play. When the teacher asked for him to say sorry he yelled at her a very resounding "NO". She has said that he is the most stubborn child she has come across.
Has anyone else out there got these difficulties? I am feeling really down this evening. I feel like I am to blame and that I went wrong somewhere along the line. I feel like I am failing him. But why is it DS2 is an angel??

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Othersideofthechannel · 03/12/2007 20:34

I don't know about normal for the age as I don't know many boys this age but as far as the stubbornness/being particular about things, this sounds like my DS. DS likes to be in control and gets upset for half an hour to 45 minutes(more sulking, whining and tears than full blown tantrum)over little things like me putting the jam on one bit of toast and the honey on the other rather than the other way round as he had planned but not requested in his head. It is way worse when he is tired.

Don't have any experience of the repeated violence but the violence towards teacher would alarm me as they are usually so much better behaved for others.

Is there anything that could be distressing him? You say your other son is an angel. Do you think it could be attention seeking?

Othersideofthechannel · 03/12/2007 20:36

That should be 'planned in his head but not requested out loud' for the toast

BitTiredNow · 03/12/2007 20:41

If it is any consolation at all, I am going through exactly the same thing - ds1 is 4, ds2 is 2 and a half. His 4's are much much worse than his terrible twos or theatrical threes. I am ashamed to say that today I had to lock him in his room for 10 mins as he was hitting and kicking so badly and destroying the room and hitting his siblings. he has dislocated his brother's arm twice in the last month and last week I caught him standing on DD (eight months) chest. I think it is defo testosterone - he is having almost continuous erections too.

Original poster

chocciedooby · 03/12/2007 20:44

Thanks Osotc. Yes DS also suffers from toast episodes!
I suppose part of it is frustration or something. Yes I do think he is looking for attention but whenever I give it he still carries on into another tantrum. He just doesn't seem to be getting enough of me!
Both DS's get on great with each other. I don't give DS2 any more attention than DS1.
There isn't anything distressing him. He has been like this for over 2 years!!!
Thinking about it now it is definately a control issue. He wants ALL OF IT and doesn't get it!
He was sticking his leg through the rungs of the stairs earlier screaming that his leg was stuck. He has done this before to get attention and I have ignored him. His leg was not stuck. The things they do eh!
I can deal confidently with bad behaviour and discipline but the violence is worrying me. Someone told me that 4 yr old boys get a huge download of testosterone at this age so maybe that it it.
I am mortified that he has lashed out at his teacher. He just has no respect for authority.

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Snowmond · 03/12/2007 20:50

Hi I don't know if it is normal or not but my DD does the same. She had a tantrum that lasted half an hour yesterday because I asked her to get a pair of socks as we were going out!

I don't know how to deal with it either. I try and ignore her but it seems to make her worse

She had the tanturm from hell last week on our way home from nursery as she couldn't go to her friends house. I had to walk all the way home while she was screaming at me and dragging on her sisters pram. By the time I got back I was in tears and had to hand her in to her daddy and shut the door.

You have my sympathy, I know how hard it is to deal with it.

Original poster

chocciedooby · 03/12/2007 20:52

Hi Bit tired now. It does help to hear that someone else is going through the same thing.
I have the exact same age gap between my 2 boys as yours.
DS1 is having a lot of erections now that you mention it. Maybe this is the testing time before they start school next year! Please god let them settle then. I am clutching onto my sanity.

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kid · 03/12/2007 20:59

My DS is 5 and is also very stubborn. His tantrums don't last as long but they do feel like it at the time. The way I have found that brings him out of it quickly is, I threaten to tell his teacher! He is an angel at school, a complete different child to the one he is at home.

I even went as far as filming him and said I would show his teacher. He was very unhappy with this, so I let him watch his behaviour and then said I would delete it if he tries hard not to act that way again.
So far, so good. But that was only yesterday so its still very early days!

Original poster

chocciedooby · 03/12/2007 21:30

Thats a great idea kid. I think I might try the video. Would be interested to know how you get on.

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Othersideofthechannel · 04/12/2007 05:47

I don't like that video idea at all. Seems like a quick fix to me.
They are like this with us because they can be, they know we will still love them despite their behaviour.
Surely it is better to get to the bottom of the emotion that is causing this behaviour and to show them a better way of expressing it?
Easier said than done though!

I wouldn't like it if someone filmed me on a bad day and showed it to other parents or my colleagues.

Othersideofthechannel · 04/12/2007 05:49

I don't like that video idea at all. Seems like a quick fix to me.
They are like this with us because they can be, they know we will still love them despite their behaviour.
Surely it is better to get to the bottom of the emotion that is causing this behaviour and to show them a better way of expressing it?
Easier said than done though!

I wouldn't like it if someone filmed me on a bad day and showed it to other parents or my colleagues.

Othersideofthechannel · 04/12/2007 05:49

I don't like that video idea at all. Seems like a quick fix to me.
They are like this with us because they can be, they know we will still love them despite their behaviour.
Surely it is better to get to the bottom of the emotion that is causing this behaviour and to show them a better way of expressing it?
Easier said than done though!

I wouldn't like it if someone filmed me on a bad day and showed it to other parents or my colleagues.

Othersideofthechannel · 04/12/2007 06:05

Oops!

kid · 04/12/2007 07:28

lol,
I wouldn't actually show it to his teacher though, but he doesn't know that!
If it stops him from being so grumpy then I can only see it as a good thing. He will grow out of it, eventually, and until then, this is what I find works.

He has improved with age, its taken 3 years though to get to this easier stage.

Original poster

chocciedooby · 04/12/2007 13:43

If I did a video I would only show it DS. Not to anyone else. It would be interesting to see his reaction. Especially if I did one now as he pretends to have his leg stuck. he does this every day for attention. It drives me bonkers.

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HonoriaGlossop · 04/12/2007 14:15

Hmm, I'm not liking the video idea either. Children learn from experience, not from watching themselves really. Unfortunately, the (thankless and hard!) role of the parent is to deal with this behaviour; it's not the child's job to watch, remember and learn and moderate; because they actually can't do that, it's expecting too much of their immature emotional responses. They WILL learn, and moderate their behaviour but that is done through consistently learning the boundaries, or should be - i think the video idea is attempting to teach through fear which just CAN'T be productive.

I'm afraid I think all you should do is deal clearly with the situation as it is at the time (as you do, with time out) rather than attempting to shame your child into not repeating the behaviour. And I think that your child thinking that you'll show this to his teachers if he does it again is REALLY not a good way to build a trusting and open feeling.....

Any yes it's not unusual for 4 yr old boys to have these monster tantrums, I agree that it has alot to do with testosterone. Continue the way you are, I think with consequences and make sure he gets some one to one time with you.

Original poster

chocciedooby · 04/12/2007 17:51

Thank you HG.
I am continuing with my consistent methods of discipline. It's just so frustrating. How long can this behaviour realistically go on for? He has been having tantrums like this since he was about 18 months old!
I know that no-one has all the answers but DS has such a strong will.
I hoping a positive angel of this will be that he may turn out to be a fine assertive and strong man. He knows what he wants but needs to learn that he won't always get it and No means NO.

I do spend one on one time with DS and have always made a point of this. He just wantd ALL of my attention and needs to learn that I can't always give it to him. I am doing my best to teach him all of these things but gee its a long hard and as you said, thankless task.

Where's the vodka!!?

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HonoriaGlossop · 04/12/2007 18:34

Have faith in him choccie If he's like my ds the tantrums will lessen and now that my ds is five they have stopped altogether. DS gets angry sometimes, as we all do, but these humongous marathon tantrum sessions are gone.

It is a long haul for him to learn that he can't have all of your attention and of course he struggles with it. But as children get older they develop the more 'social' side to their personalities which enables them to behave in a more 'moderated' manner; I think in Freudian terms kids this age are all 'ego' and still need to develop the 'id' the bit of us that is there to help us operate in a socially acceptable way, because we learn to put our own desires in their place basically. I'm not an expert and prob. got that a bit wrong but it's helped me to think that way - that this is why the tantrums come - and yes, your boy is blessed with a nice strong assertive disposition which will stand him in good stead.

Keep it up - don't be panicked into doing things like the video. Not necessary IMO.

Original poster

chocciedooby · 04/12/2007 21:19

Thanks HG. its good to get advice from someone that has been in the same position before.So good to hear your son has stopped having the tantrums. Thats really does give me hope of light at the end of the tunnel.

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