Help me start as I mean to go on - bedtime routine

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

Looking for ideas and suggestions please to help us start a framework of bedtime routine for our sleep-resistant 16 week old baby.

At the moment we have no routine, he's overtired and overstimulated by the end of the day, he only naps on the move or on my shoulder and not for more than 45 minutes (but needs longer than this as is perpetually tired). Come 5 I am making dinner, with him in the sling shouting and straining and whingeing (and rocking, even as I type, impressed?! ) to keep him calm while DP gets in (lights/noise when darkness falls and another person arrives cause great excitement), then darkened room for BF and grobag. It can take around 2 hours rocking/feeding before I can leave him, sometimes more, and then he wakes again after 45 minutes usually.

He sleeps in a cotbed sidecar next to our bed(often only way to get him asleep lying down is feeding him to sleep). I've tried leaving him alone to see if he'll nod off - this is generally met with hysterical escalating screaming which then takes an age to calm him down from. Twice recently he's woken from sleep at night but settled himself with just my hand on him, but although crying/shouting I don't think he's been properly awake on these occasions.

We had a few days a month ago now where I managed to feed him to sleep on our bed then come downstairs for the night, but this has not happened since with any success. He wakes after 45 minutes unfailingy. I have tried hovering as the critical time approaches but maybe not tried hard enough, my nerves and patience are shot and I'm kind of sick of it all .

I feel like it takes so long to get him to sleep, and I do much of it because (A) He often needs fed to sleep (B) DP gets him wound up and (C) DP doesn't seem to have the precise swaying motion required to get him off to sleep. I therefore resent DS for taking up all of my day and all of my night, I have no time alone, and if I want a quiet night I have to go to bed with him .

Therefore maybe a routine whereby he knows what happens when, and can predict it, and knows it will end in sleep, will over time help him to wind down a bit. He has hysterical crying most evenings at some point because he's just too tired and overstimulated to switch off, and I'm honestly worried DP or I will end up hurting him because our patience is shot to bits and he's so very, very frustrating. At least with steps of a routine to follow we have something concrete, and are doing something more than merely surviving day to day as we are just now. I go back to work in a couple of months and really need this to be improving by then or I think we're heading for serious problems between DP and I and between DS and both of us.

So, what would you knowledgeable and experienced people suggest? Baths are great cos he loves them, but I think he gets way too wound up by them, cue lots of kicking/shouting/mad eyes by the time he's getting his PJs on. Ditto massage. Might cope with a story or song provided in darkness, but not sure. Need to DO something, but not enough to excite him IYSWIM?

This sounds so familiar CSB, you could have been writing about my DS at 16 weeks. I think some babies are just rubbish at sleeping when they are small, mine certainly was! Everyone told me "it will get better" but that's not much comfort when you're in the middle of it. At 28 weeks I can happily say that night time sleep is 100% better now (daytime sleep leaves much to be desired!). We introduced a routine but it did take a good few weeks before we noticed an improvement so I think you have to keep going with any routine you choose. This is what we did:

on waking from last nap, keep everything as un stimulating as poss eg no mad playing or bright lights. I usually just stick him in his bouncy chair
when the 1st signs of tiredness appear, go into dimly lit bedroom with relaxing music (same music each time so DS recognises it's sleep time)
BF from 1 side lying down
undress and bath
dry, put on bedclothes and grobag (stops him thrashing about and waking himself up. DS will not sit still for a story or massage but you could try that!
BF from other side lying down
Put on white noise CD (from Jaygee cassettes online, idea pinched from another MNer, the best money I ever spent!) and rock/ sway to sleep. I keep the CD playing for a bit after he goes to sleep.

I found that the time it took to rock him to sleep decreased over time and now we are at the stage where he gets so dozy whilst having the last feed, I just put him in his cot and after a little whimper he goes to sleep. In the early days he did used to wake up after 45 mins so if he didn't settle himself, the CD went back on and I rocked him back to sleep. Everyone said "you'll make a rod for your own back if you rock/ feed him to sleep" but he has grown out of it himself and my view is that you need to do what you can to get yourself through the day.

Hope things get better for you soon.
Zeb

My dd was a crappy sleeper from birth. Nothing I did made any difference to her sleep - some nights were randomly ok, others were randomly hellish, in spite of having a consistent routine.

What helped me live through it was a partner who took over from me when he got home until midnight or so - if I needed too I could go to sleep, or just have baby free time. I often fell asleep at 7 with earplugs in. Being able to get 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a row really, really helped.

I hope your DP can do similar for you. Mostly, do whatever you need to do to survive. Your baby is not going to hold a grudge later. (((hugs)))

this is what i have tried with mine

You put baby to bed at a set time each night, after wind-down time (bath, story etc). In my case, this is 8.30pm

Baby is put down awake. You say your goodnights and leave the room.

If baby starts crying, you go in to the room. You comfort baby without picking baby up - head stroking, hand holding, soft words that kind of thing.

If baby starts crying again, you leave about 3 minutes, then repeat the step above.

Each time, you add time on before going in - so 3 minutes becomes 6, then 9, then 12.

Maybe I was lucky - I started this when my son was about 4 months old and never had to get as far as 9 minutes before he dropped off to sleep.

My ds2 gets a bath, boob, book (upstairs in darkened room), cuddle (pretty short one nowadays - he's 10 months) and bed. When he was very young he'd get one last chance of boob before bed. On days where he hasn't slept well I still give him the chance of boob before bathtime too to give him the energy to get through it all (otherwise he's too tired afterwards to get a good feed and will wake as yours does an hour-ish later). On those days I also bring bathtime forward half an hour and take everything really slow, aiming to get him in bed 15 minutes early. Bathtime here is always a really quiet and gentle affair too.
I'd also echo other advice on here about sorting out daytime sleep. If my ds hasn't slept well in the day he's much more likely to have a wakeful night. I also make sure I get him out morning and afternoon - with ds1 this made a huge difference (and ds1 was such a nightmare I now don't leave anything to chance!).

I rushed my message earlier as bedtime was looming so sorry if I sounded very abrupt. We are a routine family and whilst it can be disabling during daytime - must be at home for daytime nap - it has allowed us some time to ourselves and both mine (1 and 2) are generally good sleepers.

It was NOT easy though. So give yourself a bit of a break and try to stick to one method or routine for a period of time. We keep changing our daytime and bedtime routine based on the age of our kids and it takes a few weeks before the new routine becomes 'normal'. I would love to hear how you get on. BTW - I do not think he is too young to start a routine with him just maybe to young to expect him to fall in line so easily.

HTH

Hi Chubbyscotsburd

I am so sorry you are having a rough time. Both my girls were difficult sleepers more so my first. One thing that helped really well with my second daughter was swaddling her and trying a dummy.
I would give her a bath, very quiet and relaxing with warm water, then swaddle her and feed her. If she was still awake I would hold her until I felt she was calm and sleepy and then put her to bed, sit with her a bit and then go out of the room but come straight back if she cried.
An earlier bed time might help aswell just till he get his naps sorted.
Hope you solve for both your sakes.

Hi Chubby - sorry to hear things have still not improved. You've had so much advice on this thread that I expect your head is swimming, but I'll add my (rather long, and probably unpopular) twopennorth anyway

Ok, where to start? Well, firstly you say he falls asleep being either rocked or fed. Well, as soon as he comes into his light sleep and neither of those things is still happening, he will wake up. Also, the problem with feeding to sleep is that if he has a bubble of wind, when that starts to work it's way out of him, it will feel a bit uncomfortable and also wake him up - so I really think winding him before you put him down may help - even if it means waking him up. You KNOW if he has fallen asleep feeding that he is tired, so even if he is woken up by being winded, if you allow him to fall back to sleep he will.

So - I say "allow" him to fall back to sleep. Well you say he gets into a complete state and won't drop off. How do you feel when you are overtired? Like screaming? Well that is how your baby feels. Every day to a baby is a massive amount of information and sights and sounds and smells etc. and some babies (yours, and mine too BTW) just don't fall asleep easily chugging away on a dummy. You cannot make him fall asleep. You can however make things conducive for him to learn to fall asleep.

Where do you sleep best? I'm guessing that it is lying flat in your bed, where it is dark and quiet and cosy. While you might nod off quicker if you were very tired and say, on a bumpy bus journey, you would probably not get the best quality sleep or sleep for very long.

How long do you think your baby cries for in total throughout the day with the way things are?

How long do you think it would take if you just left your baby to "cry down" of his own accord. Mine takes about 5-10 minutes. I have a cup of tea, and if by the time I've made it I'm not hearing sounds that she's settling down (gaps between cries, cries of diminishing volume) I'll go up and shush pat a bit, but leave when she has settled down again, but before she has gone to sleep. Occasionally, if I know she is very overtired, she will go into what DP and I call "The Super Wobble" where it sounds like her head is going to explode. It doesn't, and she's asleep about a minute later. She always wakes up with a beaming smile.

And I agree with Spoo about sorting the whole 24 hours out, not just bedtime. I think it may be easier to crack settling him for daytime naps first when you are not so tired and frustrated yourself. Then you might find that nighttimes start to sort themselves out.

I realise from other posts you are not keen to go this route, but it seems from your 2nd post that things are pretty desperate.

Best of luck whichever approach you try, i hope you find a solution soon

Shit, sorry, just read that back. I sound so patronising and smug. But I just really want to help!

If it helps, I had a complete meltdown today because, although she naps well, she's still a miserable old bag in between naps

Hello, gonna give you some of my thoughts... feel free to agree or not!!

4 months is VERY little.

IMO babies are kinda meant to go to sleep with us. Dd gradually weaned herself off (with encouragement) needing to sleep on/with me.

Dh and I gave up with trying to 'share' night-time duties and instead vowed that I would look after dd and dh would look after ME (makes sure I have a cuppa, my magazine etc)... much easier for us - might not work for you of course. It's different now (she is 18mths), we share a lot more.

But I think at that stage I wrote everything I did down and slowly noticed patterns that could become a 'routine' of sorts... but IMO do Go with the Flow too - do whatever is easiest and try not to stress that your baby isn't doing what they 'should'. You will just get into a pattern/routine you are happy with and then your baby will decide to go and change it all

We introduced the bedtime 'routine' at 6 mths - but remember that bedtime 'routines' are supposed to be fun!! so a nice cuddle and story and yay, bed. Bedtime should be lovely and happy IMO. I never did the leaving to sob alone - but that's your call

CSB I really feel for you. You sound really fed up and I don't blame you. FWIW I think you are right to try and develop some kind of routine. Ours has always been bath, feed and bed. I started this with DS2 when he was about 9 weeks. Some nights (like tonight) it takes a little while before he is ready to go into his cot. He doesn't feed well (it seems to make him uncomfortable) so I persevere until he gets drousy. When he cries I sometimes hold him and pat his back. Sometimes he has to have a little cry in his bed because I'm with DS1 and DD but if I then let him feed he usually starts to nod off after that. With DS1 I used a technique a read about developed by an Australian midwife.

1. feed & wind etc
2. swaddle
3. lie baby on his side facing away from you and pat him. Do this for (I think up to 15 mins)
4. If he is still awake/crying pick him up and settle him.
5. lie him on his other side and start again.
6. when asleep gently roll onto his back (I never managed to do this without waking him up mind!)

It worked to get DS1 to go to sleep. I never had to go further than the 1st 15 mins. I can't remember if you build up to 15 mins though. It was really hard and I hated hearing him cry, but I was desperate (My DH was in Canada at the time so I was on my own). The big downside was it caused problems with him waking in the night and wanting to be patted to sleep. So I have tried not to do it with the other 2. I felt I had no choice but for him to cry as he wouldn't feed himself to sleep and co-sleeping meant that I was feeding him every 2 hours and getting no sleep.

I think what also helped was getting into a routine in the day of naps. (Using the same settling technique) With DD I was less rigid on times, but was more confident that I knew when she needed a sleep (about 2 hours after she woke from the last one building up to 3 hours).

I really hope that you find a solution that works for you because I know how it feels to have a highly alert baby.
FWIW Ds1 now loves his sleep and often has to be waked for school.

Thanks all, the child sleeps!

During my last post (7.20ish) DP was doing nappy, PJs, grobag in the dark. Then I went through and fed both sides in the dark then rocking. Had to pick him up and rock again twice but he's a bit windy tonight. Came out of the room at 8.40 and he's so far still asleep (plenty time to wake still, but hey!).

Thanks all for your advice and ideas. As I say, I'd be happy for him to share our bedtime but he simply needs more sleep than he's getting and he can't sleep downstairs and I'm so tired of spending my nights either dancing round the kitchen to the tune of the cooker hood with DS in the sling, grumbling, or lying in the darkness ALL evening with my boob getting chewed off, only for him to wake all over again and send me back to square one (or round the twist!).

Important points from you - we're too stressed, you're right. Not going to get anywhere without calming our butts down. Calm darkness obviously is good (as per tonight ). Not sure what to do about the elusive naps (sorry, whoever suggested 2 hours, I just about choked ... a distant dream!) but maybe some sort of strict pram-time every morning would help. He's really (relatively) easy to get to sleep in the morning, but very difficult in the afternoons and near impossible at night. This makes it tempting to lie in with him (he goes back to sleep and the waking hours of the day are shorter!) but I will resolve to get out of bed every day at 7.30 from hereon in. And engaging DP in bedtime routine. Rocking works, which I shall encourage, because DS feeds to sleep during all the nighttime feeds (he just comes into bed with us) and at least DP can rock too!

I think I am the sort of person who needs to have a plan of attack when faced with a problem and until now I've been trying to 'go with it' but feeling a lot like I was in charge of a huge snowball. DS isn't a problem per se but our lives just now are not fun in a lot of ways, which sucks when you have a gorgeous, smiley, chattery little baby. Hopefully at least if we feel like we're doing something positive we can be calmer and DS will benefit from this.

Thank you all so much for your experiences and perspective, every night I have such a low but hopefully we can start to get some sense of calm and normality going. Night time sleep isn't fab but as we're cosleeping it's tolerable right now and I refuse to even worry about it just yet!

Ah, yes, I meant to reply to you specifically Bodkin - although not a fan of leaving him to cry, on several occasions DP or I have 'had a go' at letting him self-settle (DP has a theory that we should shut the door and that's an end to it). He gets completely manic, and would cry for literally hours if not helped in some way. I had this dream about 5-10 mins of grumbling and the easy sleep but it's not happening - but thanks!

And I also meant to say (wish I was less verbose - bet you lot do too!) that I realise a lot of you guys have your own troubles and so I especially appreciate you taking the time to read about, think about and give help to me.

Glad to hear you're feeling better about everything CSB. I was like you I needed to know that I had a plan. You need to find what suits you, and I hope that getting back some control of the situation however you decide to do it helps you feel happier about everything. I totally know what you're saying about wanting to enjoy your gorgeous baby. Good Luck.

Hi hon,
Your posts have been so much of a comfort to me, it has helped me feel like I am not alone with DS and his awful sleep habits.
Sending lots of great big bear hugs.
Your and my DS have sounded so similar all along. The only difference was the evenings where he settled in the pram in the evenings for a few hours. Those few hours kept me sane.
Like you rest of the day (naps etc) and night pretty awful.

Last few days it all went tits up, so have not had a chance to get onto MN. I have finally broken and ended up doing what I did not think I would which was put him in his cot and leave him crying .

He would no longer settle in the pram at all, spent all evening pushing him while he cried. Think he is now too big for it, he wants to sleep with arms and legs akimbo and so woke up every time he moved. We had evenings of what DH calls 'purple head' crying, completely overtired.

We have had a bedtime routine since 8 weeks, as MIL was adamant it would help. Did not seem to make a difference at first, but now I think it does a bit.

At 6 I bath him, or DH does if he is home. He quite likes being in the water, but hates getting out and getting dressed. Cries +++ but we have persevered. I then sit down with lights down low and feed him to sleep in the lounge. Then would carefully put him in the pram when asleep.

Four nights ago, purple headed screaming all evening. DH and I shouting at each other as we were so stressed. So decided I could not take any more, especially as the nights and days are quite a challenge, as you know from previous posts, so decided from now on he will sleep in his cot in the evenings. Three nights ago, fed as usual then into his cot. He woke up 20 mins later very unhappy. So, I had decided I would not get him out of the cot once he was in it. So I sat with him, holding his hand, stroking his tummy, hair etc. He screamed and screamed. It was awful. But, I did not give up and did not leave him. Felt if he was going through it he would not do it alone. Took 90 mins to settle, finally slept through exhaustion I think. Woke him at 11 to feed him and co slept as normal. Amazingly he had tired himself out so much he did not think it was day time from 4 am - Thank god!
Yesterday, did the same, only needed to sit with him for 40 mins. DH made me G&T to sit with for extra backbone .
Today, settled after 5 mins!!! Woke up after 30, cried for about 10 mins with me with him. But not proper furious crying today at all, more than grumble crying, but less than the horrid 'I have lost all control" desperate crying.

So that is where we are at. I was really worried he would feel I had betrayed him but he seems no different when I do the late night feed. I had thought I could never do any sort of CC technique but then I never thought I would co sleep or have him asleep in the pram for months.

I don't know if any of the above ramble helps. I hope it does help to know I am thinking of you. I often wonder how you are doing. Your posts have kept my chin up during some bad times. Something tells me you live in Scotland ? I am in London, I would offer to come and babysit if you were closer.

Much love to you and your DS
GG

Would echo that getting outside (esp if a nice day) was (and still is) essential for us. When DS was your LO's age he seemed to need a long walk in the morning and preferably time outside in the afternoon as well. The fresh air does seem to make them more sleepy (or it could be the calming effect of the pram). Plus the screaming is never as bad outside!

He slept for 90 minutes last night! Had to take him in with me after that but what a great start!

Thanks all for your help, especially Tipex. The other night while searching for solutions I found this old thread of yours and showed it to DP. It gave me huge comfort, thank you. I agree that it can be infuriating getting the same advice over and over wheb it just doesn't help these crazy wired babies. I think people have to kind of see it to believe it - definitely true of both grannies in our case! I'm hoping the routine I'm going to try and enforce will help ... wish me luck!

hope things are improving, have just scanned quickly the posts so will probably just be repeating. An alternative to soothing music is 'white noise' ie a detuned radio making a hiss - this can soemtimes help if baby is too wired to calm down, it does soemtimes help to soothe. My dc2 is 16 weeks also and i really think getting sleeps during the day helps. Try not to rush in after the first 45 cycle in the afternoon sleep and you may get a longer one. I have always put both of them down awake which seems to help as they know where they are. if i have put them down asleep i can guarantee they will wake up screaming after 45 minutes. Hope you are beginning to get an evening back - there is no nicer sound in the world than silence and a wine bottle being uncorked at 8pm! it will happen one day, do not despair

PS leaving mine to 'self-settle' didn't/doesn't work either if she is crying - she just gets more and more worked up too.

Definitely write what you are doing down - it will help you see the patterns and feel like you are kinda taking control

Milk
Sleeping
Playing/Awake

eg 9am Awake, play under baby gym
9.30am milk, sleep
10am Awake, cuddles
10.30am milk

etc etc

you will start to see patterns... maybe...

Hi again - hope there has been some improvements in your DS since you started the thread!

I read the old thread from Tipex that you linked to (just the OP) and the bit about spending the whole day trying to get LO to sleep sounds very familiar. It is true to say that in these early weeks, if you have a baby that is easily overtired, it does feel like that. I have no life atm - I go to and fro from pre-school to pick up DD1 (5 mins away) and that is the sole extent of my outings! I don't do any babygroups as DD2 would never last without getting tired and grotty and then very difficult to settle. I get friends to come to me rather than go visiting as it's just so much easier. I go to the supermarket in the evening when DP is around to babysit.

Our babies won't need quite so much help with their daytime naps forever. But it is worth persevering with getting the day naps sorted and hopefully he will sleep better at night if he is well rested during the day.

And agree with Horseymum about not rushing to him when he wakes after a 45 min nap - he may fuss a little, and then go back to sleep again [hopeful smile]

Just a quick post to thank you all again for your help and give you an early days update. We're making definite progress - bedtime is not nearly as bad as it was, and in just a few days I'm no longer sick with dread as evenings approach.

Now when DP comes home he takes DS straight upstairs for a peaceful cuddle and a chat, then changes him and gets him into his grobag, and reads him nursery rhymes. Then I feed and settle him in darkness for the evening. Then I get to eat, wash, sit down, chill out - woohoo! I still spend my days on mumsnet stuck in a chair while he naps on my shoulder but we can sort that later.

DP is already, as a result of this routine, learning to look for DS's tired signs, which he didn't really 'get' before now. I am managing to leave the room after an hour now, much quicker than the 2 hours plus I was spending on settling a distraught and overtired baby. DS is sleeping better - back to a long evening sleep (2.25 hrs before his first waking yesterday!) and then we had a 4hr stretch during last night! I feel tentatively that we're getting on top of this chronic overtiredness.

I realise as soon as this settles down DS will change all over again, but it really feels like we're getting somewhere now and finding a level that we can all stick to and we're all happier now. DP is 'on side' now he has seen the benefits of being calm and quiet in the evenings, and I can feel my resentment abating.

Thank you all for your help! DS is never going to be like those doe-eyed, contented sleepy babies but it's so much easier to love him for who he is when we're not spending every night taking turns with him as he screams. I think we might soon be able to enjoy him properly -

Just a quick post to thank you all again for your help and give you an early days update. We're making definite progress - bedtime is not nearly as bad as it was, and in just a few days I'm no longer sick with dread as evenings approach.

Now when DP comes home he takes DS straight upstairs for a peaceful cuddle and a chat, then changes him and gets him into his grobag, and reads him nursery rhymes. Then I feed and settle him in darkness for the evening. Then I get to eat, wash, sit down, chill out - woohoo! I still spend my days on mumsnet stuck in a chair while he naps on my shoulder but we can sort that later.

DP is already, as a result of this routine, learning to look for DS's tired signs, which he didn't really 'get' before now. I am managing to leave the room after an hour now, much quicker than the 2 hours plus I was spending on settling a distraught and overtired baby. DS is sleeping better - back to a long evening sleep (2.25 hrs before his first waking yesterday!) and then we had a 4hr stretch during last night! I feel tentatively that we're getting on top of this chronic overtiredness.

I realise as soon as this settles down DS will change all over again, but it really feels like we're getting somewhere now and finding a level that we can all stick to and we're all happier now. DP is 'on side' now he has seen the benefits of being calm and quiet in the evenings, and I can feel my resentment abating.

Thank you all for your help! DS is never going to be like those doe-eyed, contented sleepy babies but it's so much easier to love him for who he is when we're not spending every night taking turns with him as he screams. I think we might soon be able to enjoy him properly -

:sigh: sorry

You have my sympathies. Your baby sounds a lot like ours and I found that the following things helped. I read 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' and got several ideas from that. Prior to that our baby was co-sleeping with us in the middle of our bed (I know that to one side with a rail is rec but it worked for us). She fell asleep nurseing lying down facing one another but wouldn't sleep without me so for first three months of her life I went to bed with her!! In last month have implemented a routine which for us is 15 mins nappy off time where she can kick laugh, get tickled and kissed naked, followed by a bath with lavender oil in it. She then has her bottle in a darkened room (no longer BF but that's not connected with routine) before being rocked/sung to sleep and put in cot in grobag. Have used no cry book in conjunction with 'The Fussy Baby' by Dr Sears are DD def borderline high needs and they need different handling to other babies ie put down asleep not sleepy!! Good luck and hopefully it will improve. My dd now 4 months and sleeping 6 to 6 in her cot at the moment waking once to feed at 1.30am approx. Know this could all change but working for now!!

That sounds like a great improvement! Well done - I'm sure things will continue to improve over the next few months - who knows, he may become one of those doe-eyed babies one day that sits on your lap and sucks his thumb (just as all those placid ones discover crawling heh heh heh!)