Autisic ?

[wildfish]

Unintentional long post:

In nursery DS is a completely different boy. I've seen it in action. At home/outside of nursery 180degrees about turn.

In Nursery - doesn't interact with the kids. Doesn't want to do anything, other than sit in the book section - without books. Doesn't want to paint/play/read, unless told to go there. He has to be told what to do, and then will stay there doing that. Didn't used to feed himself. Basically the nursery think there is an autistic streak.

But outside of nursery he will do anything he wants. Babbles continuously, decides when and what to play with, demands whenever he wants, feeds himself, even sometimes wants to make his own food (like taking out a pizza from the freezer and putting it straight into the oven - I was there!!). Pours his own drinks from the fridge. Plays from one thing, to another etc. You get the gist. He plays with other children - though perhaps not on a completely free style as others might.

Now when I watched him in nursery - to me he looked completely bored and looked like he was "killing time", waiting to get out. But the nursery took offence at the idea a child could be bored in their place, and said I was in denial.

Now the only time he seems to enjoy nursery is on trips outside - even they admit he likes it and is quite lively, and if the nursery, for example, is having a party.

The other factor is his speech is not clear. I can understand him and family can about 60%. But I notice in nursery they don't, and they don't seem to try - they guess and move on. I also notice that when he realises someone can't understand him, he either clams up or tries an alternative word - if he knows one.

Given his behaviour outside of there, I doubt he has something wrong, but is there anyone else out there experiencing a similar situation.

What age is he?

Haha good point. Now 3 3/4. Been at nursery since 2 1/2. They say they see little improvements. They also think I am very concerned, and so they approach me with a - don't worry - the assessor will assess. But I am not concerned as such, simply because of the behaviour I see. But, would welcome others view.

Does he do things like pointing? Has he any other issues at all like being fussy about food, or hyper/hypo sensitive to touch?

I think I would be a bit concerned, but as you say it may be a 'shutting down' at nursery - but probably worth mentioning to HV or GP, especially if you're concerned about speech, as it would be good to get any problems diagnosed before school!

He's probably fine, but definitely worth checking out!

My friend's lo who is autistic does demonstrate different behaviour at home and school - simply because there is so much more stimulus at school, and it is too much for him so he shuts off. At home it is sometimes hard to remember he has autism. Again, don't let that worry you, he's probably fine!

It also sounds to me as if it is more to do with the nursery not being the right environment for him, but I agree that, as waiting lists for SALT tend to be long, it would be worth speaking to your HV about any possible referral.

I have an autistic three-year old and, whilst that certainly does not make me an expert , there isn't really anything in your description of your DS that screams "autism" to me.

It sounds complex - I'm not an expert but I wonder if you should have hm checked by a GP for things like his hearing. There could me any number of reasons why he doesn't want to interact at nursery, and I agree he sounds normal at home.

But I am shocked that they can raise the possibility of AS and then say you're "in denial"! That's outrageous. Who made them medical experts? I do wonder if autism is so well-known now that anyone and everyone think they can just label it all over the place. Sensitively suggesting you get it checked out is one thing, but acting as if they have decided he's autistic and you're wrong if you have other ideas... I would be furious.

In fact if they have that attitude to him I wonder if they could actually be perpetuating his lack of interest.

Wow what a board, so many responses. Thanks,

Try to answer all the questions.

Pointing ? Nothing other than normal, like when I can't see something that he can.

Fussy about food .... hmmmn, more at home than nursery - he tries new food there, and then wants that at home, actually at home he hardly tries new stuff. Tries new stuff outside home - e.g. Grandparents, nursery and restaurants.

No sensitive to touch. Actually now you mention it, he never hugs me on the way into nursery - I never realised until a few weeks ago, that they were noting that. But again outside of nursery - home especially - wants hugs, and cuddles, pick ups etc.

Waiting lists: He is on a waiting list for a child psychologist assessor, but they seem to be taking it casual, and honestly I am in no hurry, since it seems very localised to nursery.

Too much stimulus at nursery - Thats what they said - but then they haven't seen home Honestly the way he looked at nursery was "sigh, okay I'll play with this, I'll pretend its my disney cars, or pirates, or .." But it seemed almost forced, like I have to.

Hearing: Seems very normal and sensitive - seems to be listening even when he's supposed to be distracted elsewhere! and picks up words whispered, and I know he can speak clearly when encouraged. At the moment he's gone into superspeed speech - e.g. where's the space key gone!!

Oh I forgot : typical morning routine,

ds: "I'm not going nursery today"
me: "why not"
ds: "Its boring", "I too sick", "Its a holiday", "its closed", "its the weekend" , "its Friday"
me: "but all children go nursery" "then they grow up and go school"
ds: "no, I stay at home", "I too small for school"

I do feel they have like diagnosed it, and now are proving it with their observations (e.g. no hug going into nursery).

I don't know its just sounds like a kid to me?

My daughter suffers from auditory sensitivity and found nursery very hard. She could do much more at home than at nursery and it turned out that the noise was just too much for her and she couldn't concentrate, so she withdrew.

There may be no problem with your son, but if - as happened with my daughter - people start hurling a diagnosis around without proper assessment then I would advise you to talk to your GP about seeing a paediatric consultant. This issue could be caused by numerous things, but if there is a medical issue then the sooner your DS gets support the better IME.

Good luck

Patsy

THis sounds a lot like my dd. she is 3.3 and has ASD (NOT saying that your ds has, but the behaviour patterns are similar)

Dd at home is bright, cheeky, sociable (seeks out social contact, loves to sing/read together, enjoys people enormously) and plays to a cetain extent. She is also very definitely autistic, so no imaginative play, delayed language (now very good at labelling things (names of objects) but most other language use is from whole learnt phrases (eg "let's go home and have some lunch" when I know she has little concept of "home").

She talks and sings to me constantly, is independant to a certain degree (can fetch own stories/books/toys) and is starting to dress herself.

At pre-school (and at her last nursery) she does the same as your ds. She seems to shut down. she is apparently hard to engage with, will comply with requests but never makes any herself. will listen to music/singing but never joins in. She seems to have enormous trouble deciding to do anyhting, but if something is suggested to her (eg painting) she will go and do it.

Dd's Senco has suggested that these problems are not necessarily because she is autistic (although that obv does nt help) but because she is feeling overwhelmed, and is unable to talk to the carers about what is upsetting her. Like you with your ds, I understand most of what dd says, and try to understand her when I don't. I suspect the nursery do not try as hard (not a criticism, merely an observatin) and dd gives up and retreats - after all, why bother trying to talk to someone if they are not getting the message?

The problem seems to be that there is too much going on at nursery - dd is fine on a one-to-one basis, and when her senco and portage visit her at home she engages and chats with them, and we are working on her playing. When they see her at pre-school however, she does not interact at all. Nurseries are so very busy, and it is easy for little ones to be overwhelmed. It is, really just an extended version of shyness.

Sorry cross posts!

The nursery are very wrong to try to diagnose your child like this. Telling you that you are in denial is also outrageous. If it were that easy to diagnose autism then the NHS wouldn't need to have Child Development Centres. They'd just ask nursery staff to do the diagnosing and save themselves a small fortune.

Your ds is just at the right age IME to be finding nursery boring. He's presumably already been there at least year and has been through most of the activities already. The older children will have just left to start school and he will have been left behind with 'boring' little children (from his POV).

Your description could possibly fit my ds2 (AS) apart from the unclear speech but equally could fit any number of NT children. The Paediatrician who eventually diagnosed ds2 left it for a long time because he wanted to be absolutely sure. As you have no worries yourself about your ds then I think it's highly likely that he is fine. It's worth seeing someone about his speech/hearing though, even if only to rule out any problems.

I'm all for nursery staff alerting parents to potential problems but in this case they have gone too far IMHO.

My DS doesn't hug on the way into nursery - I don't think that's a sign of anything much. He's very huggy at home, but when he arrives at nursery he kind of takes on this more grown-up aspect and hands me his coat and goes in. I let him do it his way as I think he's developed his own way of doing the transition IYSWIM. (No sign of ASD so far btw.)

sorry, x-posts with you.

having heard more about your ds, it really doesn't sound like autism to me (but I'm not an expert, just a parent!)

eg:
"Pointing ? Nothing other than normal, like when I can't see something that he can."

a classic sign of autism is inability to point. dd can just about now point to something in a picture, but has no understanding that she can draw my attention to something by pointing.

"No sensitive to touch. Actually now you mention it, he never hugs me on the way into nursery - I never realised until a few weeks ago, that they were noting that. But again outside of nursery - home especially - wants hugs, and cuddles, pick ups etc."

dd can be very sensitive to touch. she is very loving and huggy, but on her terms - it is not possible to hug her when she is being sensitive.

It does sound more as though he is being overwhelmed and/or bored (one can lead to another, as if he is overwhelmed and withdraws from contact he will then sit around being a bit bored - this is what ends up happening with dd)

I think your ds has summed up the situation. 'He too small for school'.

BLESS that boy He just obviously doesn't thrive in the Nursery environment; not every child does - why should they? Not all of us would thrive in the same environment, would we?

If he's fine at home and you're not worried, then I would tell the nursery that.

What age will he be starting school - a young four, or rising five?

As others have said he could have ASD but he might not. My DS1 behaved in a similar way at nursery as he has AS but I was already having my doubts about him when they mentioned it so it wasn't a shock and they certainly wouldn't have accused me of being in denial. They openly admitted that they didn't know enough to do a dx but they wanted to know if I had any concerns. Your son's nursery have been unnecessarily alarmist if you ask me.

Since you are already on the waiting list to to see the psychologist I would just sit it out. The waiting list is usually quite long but you don't seem overly worried which is a good thing. He may just grow out of whatever it is that is making him behave this way. He may just be bored. My DS2 tends to withdraw from things when he is bored and is no longer being engaged and he is NT.

Just one question, my DS1 who is AS didn't really have any friends, he didn't seem able to play with other children for very long. Does your DS have friends either at home or in nursery? Could it be that his favourite people left nursery last term because they had to start school and he just isn't interested in making new ones?

The other thing is that it is interesting that he seems to notice that other people can't understand him and changes the word he uses. I am not sure an ASD child so young would notice that and try to compensate in this way. My DS would just keep repeating himself and not be able adjust what he was trying to say to help the other person out. It could just be that some speech therapy might help - your HV should be able to refer you.

Thanks all, you've helped me not feel like I am in denial (I supposed we can all doubt after a bit). When the assessor assesses, apparently at home and nursery, I will take it in, but meanwhile I won't worry or push for it.

I think the nursery are CYA attitude. But added to that anything I say seems proof to them, like his learning being good - "Thats also common". Oh well. I should point out that it is the two senior members, rather than the younger ones - I think.

He hopefully will start school in 9months, just over 4.5.

silverfrog : "after all, why bother trying to talk to someone if they are not getting the message?"
That is exactly how I think it goes, and funnily enough its how I still act to this day in meetings must be genetic. I have a tendency to be quiet, until I am 100% positive and confident - and I mean 100%, that I normally miss the opportune moment to speak. duh!

good luck wildfish

Niecle: "friends":

No he doesn't have any "friends". The best friends he has are his cousins, but they live in another city, so he doesn't sees them regularly. He claims - and this is him telling me - that his friends in nursery are [two or three children described], but the nursery only told me, after I asked, said yes he hangs around with them, but more hangs around, rather than actively interacts: Again I feel its more to do with not getting understood, which means simpler to hang around, rather than attempt to drive it. (again its sounds like me!)

He has now, decided he wants a boy from nursery to come to his house, so going to be arranging that, during the holidays (the other boy is 9-5 - 5 days a week at nursery).

I think you have exactly the right attitude - aware that there could be a problem but not trying to find trouble when maybe there is none. Don't let the nursery bully you into thinking of your son in a particular way until he has been properly assessed.

I hope it all works out for you.