Mad 3 year old

[emsiewill]

I'm sure my dd is not unusual, and in fact that's why I'm coming to you lot for help and advice.
The way my youngest dd behaves has been a real shock to me. DD1, although very "challenging" at times (cf plenty of threads with me moaning about her) has always basically been naturally "good". She likes to please, and get approval. DD2, on the other hand is completely different. She is basically very easy-going, doesn't tantrum very often, and can be extremely funny, and also highly imaginative, making up stories about things she has done at nursery, which after investigation turn out to be straight from her head (nothing bad, just silly - like the teacher said she couldn't have a tissue, but "I walked really slowly to the toilet so she wouldn't see me" ). She's also very sensitive and loving, lots of kisses and cuddles.
BUT when she gets her "silly" head on, it's very hard to communicate with her, and get her to cooperate. She gets very excitable, runs around laughing and shrieking, and will not listen. If I shout, she just gets louder and sillier. I have tried speaking in a quiet voice, but then she just can't hear me! Often when she gets like this dd1 either tries to stop her, and winds her up even more, or she joins in, so I've got 2 of them doing it. She's also a great one for running off, and doesn't seem worried by being out of sight. When she's excited she doesn't see the danger in any situation. Apparently dh was just the same as a child, and he's not turned out badly, but I really would like to find ways to get her to cooperate without having to get cross and shout all the time. We are using a sticker chart at the moment, to get her to stay in bed once it's bedtime, sometimes it works, sometimes she just doesn't care - if she's having more fun being silly, then that's what she'll do.
Anyone recognise this kind of "silly" behaviour? Got any tips?

No real tips emsiewill but she sounds great! Love the tissue story.

Sorry I haven't got any tips but if you find any answers let me know. My DS2 is like a tasmanian devil at times running around creating chaos wherever he goes. I don't know if it is a bit of middle child attention seeking with him but it exhausts me.

So I guess I just have to live with it then. No wonder she said to me the other day "why are you always cross, mummy? "

emsiewill, have you ever read any "family constellation" stuff? Some of the child's personality/character is obviously intrinsic but some of it comes from observation; if first child is very good and obliging, second child will be the opposite (because the "good" position has been taken). Vice versa happens too.

The child's sex makes a bit of a difference - eg, if child 1 is good but a girl, and child 2 is a boy, he can also be good because he is the first boy, but will probably be differently good.

This obviously sounds a bit barmy but from observation of mine - 2 girls followed by 2 boys - it makes some kind of sense. I had a "good" girl followed by a very "difficult" girl, and a lively "naughty" boy followed by a quiet "good" boy.

Don't suppose this helps much, emsiewill - I love the tissue story too, she is obviously in a world of her own sometimes! My dd1 used to try to be grown-up and calm dd2 down too, but it usually made things worse. I was cross a lot too, but I believe it is important with a child like this to be as firm as you can or else they end up running the show while you quake in a corner.

(dd2 - 17 now - has turned out more or less OK but we still get total hysteria sometimes when she doesn't get her own way - she could shriek for England, won't listen, shouting back doesn't help and you just have to wait till she's finished. I always used to compare her to the little girl with the little curl - "when she was good she was very very good but when she was bad she was horrid". It still applies and now we have PMT too to complicate matters!)

Yes, janh, dd2 has a curl right in the middle of her forehead (all over her head as well), and she is like that little girl. This family constellation stuff sounds quite interesting, I'm pretty sure that dd1 is good, because that's how she's heard herself being described, and she loves to hold the moral high ground. It's sooo hard not to stereotype them, though.
Do you have the names of any books about family constellations?

emsiewill, the one I have is called "First Child, Second Child" but it's a library reject and I don't know if it's still in print.

I'll do a bit of research!

emsiewill, my youngest son gets a silly head on just like your youngest daughter. No real solution apart from the things already mentioned.

IME with my oldest son - very active when young, things do naturally calm down as they get past five-ish. I agree with Janh that firmness is important and also not letting your child see that you're getting wound up. Sometimes this means I deliberately turn my attention to my older son, if he's being good, to the silly one doens't have an audience and the oldest one doesn't join in.

Silly behaviour often means my younger son is overtired. Early eveing is a prime time for sillyness. Bringing his bedtime rountine forward and plonking him in a bath to calm him down works well. I even do this during the day, if time permits.

HTH

It's me again, looking for more advice about my mad 3 year old.
A few weeks ago, a little boy's (I'll call him Ben) mum mentioned that he was always talking about dd2, and dd2 did say (when asked) that they were friendly. Since then, I've got talking with the mum, dd2 has talked more about Ben, and we went round for tea last week, which I hoped was the beginning of a continuing reciprocal arrangement. Their teacher had briefly mentioned that they sometimes got "silly" together (not really a surprise to hear that dd2 gets silly), and she had had to separate them. However, yesterday we went to "parents' evening" at dd2's nursery. Teacher was mostly happy with dd2's progress/behaviour, BUT Ben has apparently become completely obsessed with her. They play together, and gradually become sillier and sillier, so the teacher separates them, which dd2 accepts, and plays with the other children happily. However, Ben is not happy until he's back with dd2 again, and apparantly "can't take his eyes off her". The teacher suggested that if they are to meet up outside nursery, we should try to involve "2 or 3" other children (so I should have 3 or 4 3 and 4 year olds round for tea?!- no thanks) Now I'm no fool, I know that dd2 needs no encouragement to get involved in mischief, and that's not really something that I'm particularly worried about - I know they'll be in different classes next year (opposite ends of the school year) and dd2 is not upset about the intense attention she's getting from Ben. What I'm more concerned about is not upsetting Ben and his mum - she feels really bad about all this - even to the extent of considering moving Ben to afternoons. He's apparently not really had his own friend before (neither has dd2 really, just tagged along with dd1), and I can't see the harm in them spending time together if they enjoy each others' company. I understand that the teacher does not want them disrupting the class, and I'm happy for her to deal with that as she sees fit, but why should dd2 (and me, for that matter) have to pass up the opportunity to expand our circle of friends?
Sorry to waffle on, hope there's someone out there who has persevered with this long message, and who may have some wise words to say.

Emieswill, I don't think it's for the teacher to say who your dd plays with out of nursery! I agree, let her deal with it when they're there (especially as she has said she can successfully separate them and it's fine) and meet up with Ben if and when you want to. Also, I don't blame you for feeling for the other mother - we can all imagine how we might feel in her shoes. I think that's probably what I'd do in your position anyway.

emsiewill, I'm sorry, I never have any wise words but poor little Ben - sounds lovely! It won't last forever will it? Children do seem to move on to new friends quite quickly at that age and he might soon get to the stage where he thinks girls are 'stupid' anyway. Maybe. Wish I was more use.

This might sound a bit pompous, but I'd like to think that their friendship is good for them both - his mother says that he's not usually particularly affectionate, but when we were there for tea, dd2 decided she had an earache, and he was extremely concerned - got her a plaster, and when that didn't work, wet a teatowel and tried to hold it to her ear. And as I've said, she's not really had many one-to-one friends of her own age until now.

At 3, lots of children don't have one-to-one friendships, so the lack of that until now isn't something I'd worry about. I wonder if the teacher is concerned that Ben is becoming too dependent on your dd and will suffer unduly when they are separated? But if that is her concern, then she should be talking to Ben's parents rather than you, I'd have thought, eg suggesting they expose him to a wider number of children outside nursery.

At 3, lots of children don't have one-to-one friendships, so the lack of that until now isn't something I'd worry about. I wonder if the teacher is concerned that Ben is becoming too dependent on your dd and will suffer unduly when they are separated? But if that is her concern, then she should be talking to Ben's parents rather than you, I'd have thought, eg suggesting they expose him to a wider number of children outside nursery.

I agree with SueDonim, I think the teacher is worried about Ben's relying on DD2 for company to the exclusion of other possible friendships. In my very limited (ie 1 3 yo!) experience, it is unusual to have such an attachment so young. The children DS1 considers to be his friends change weekly. However, he does have a strong attachment to a girl he's know from birth, so much so that her mother and I are discussing wedding outfits It's lovely to see them play together ans walk around holding hands.

I guess we don't know what the teacher said to Ben's mother, she probably said the same thing so why don't you talk abut it with her next time you meet up? If she's not worried about it and nether are you, leave it at that. I wouldn't stop meeting or have more pre-schoolers round unless you want to.

Well, I spoke to Ben's mum this morning, and she met with the teacher yesterday evening, and then was "sent to the headteacher" (and she is a very scary woman, so it does feel like you are in trouble! ). The school are obviously concerned about Ben, and the teacher has written a letter for Ben's mum to give to her GP, to speed up the referral that he has already had (last July, and the appointment is next March). She was obviously quite upset and worried, the teacher also suggested that she went on an "assertive discipline" parenting course that the local authority is running. We didn't get chance to chat much, but she gave me the impression that she feels like a failure. She also has an 18 month old to deal with, and I really feel for her; who hasn't been in the position of feeling like a rubbish parent, whose children's problems are all their fault? I'm going to invite them round for tea here (hoping she won't feel obliged to refuse because the teacher said we should't), I feel it's my duty to make her realise that she's actually a good parent for caring so much about her child.
Sorry if I've waffled (again), 2 glasses of wine has made me feel eloquent (even if I'm not). Sometimes other people's troubles really put your own into perspective.

emsiewill that sounds like the school is overreacting a bit to me. I think it sounds like a fun friendship for both the children, and hope the Mum does come for tea! If I had a child like Ben I would be really pleased that another parent didnt mind the crazy behaviour and was just happy for the kids to be friends.

Go for it, Emsiewill. Bet Ben and his mum and dd2 will be delighted and it sounds like the teacher has been slightly tactless and acted way beyond her remit to me. Making people feel like failures is not a fab way to improve situations IME... Hope you all have fun, anyway

Your dd sounds very simiklar to my youngest son also aged 2.Ihave wondered if it's something he's eaten but can't seem to trace it to anything. He is also one for running off. On our last visit to IKEA he escaped from the children's section and was missing for several minutes unbtil eventually he was brought to us by the head chef! He had inadvertently wandered into the restaurant kitchen!When he does get his silly head on we try to keep calm and ignore him until its out of his system, this isn't easy when our 3 year old is egging him on. Basically he is a performer, plays up to an audience so we try not to give him one.The trouble is he can be very very funny!

Your dd sounds very similar to my youngest son also aged 2.I have wondered if it's something he's eaten but can't seem to trace it to anything.It is more common for him to dive into silly mode when he is very tired. He is also one for running off. On our last visit to IKEA he escaped from the children's section and was missing for several minutes until eventually he was brought to us by the head chef! He had inadvertently wandered into the restaurant kitchen!When he does get his silly head on we try to keep calm and ignore him until its out of his system, this isn't easy when our 3 year old is egging him on. Basically he is a performer, plays up to an audience so we try not to give him one.The trouble is he can be very very funny!

Yes, joben, he does sound like dd2 - and you're right, although it's teeth-clenchingly infuriating when they're so silly, it's also very hard to keep a straight face.

Emsiewill - I'm amazed! These kids are at nursery - not doing an MBA. Teachers and headteachers??? Blimey. I'm not sending my ds to nursery if it is full of authoratarian bullies who can't cope with a bit of silliness from babies. After all, if you can't be silly when you're three, when can you be? And frankly, I think they are probably learning more from having fun together than doing 'lessons' which IMO are not at all important or indeed relevant to babies. Your dd and Ben sound lovely both as children and together.

I feel a bit bad now - although I'm not 100% pleased with the way the school are dealing with this, I am sure that they are concerned about Ben, and are trying to help him and his parents to sort out his problems before they get too bad. His mum did say to me that they're having terrible trouble dealing with him at home, so it's not as though it's just the school that are "picking" on him.
And I can't find it in me to feel angry with the teacher - she's the nicest, loveliest teacher possible - she had dd1 in Reception last year, and was great bringing her out of herself - she's quickly learnt that dd2 doesn't need any help in coming forward .
The headteacher is really scary, though, and I would be genuinely nervous if I had to go & see her. But, I have been very impressed by the way she seems to know by name all the children in the school (about 400), and we're very happy with the "culture" of the school - dd1 has blossomed there, and she's so much more polite and, more importantly, calmer than she used to be.

Emsiewill, is a school your dd is at? But she's only 3? Surely at that age 'silliness' can't possibly matter? Or maybe I'm wrong! Has been known.

It's a nursery unit attached to a school - and it is the first year they've had a nursery, so they're obviously feeling their feet a bit.
And I'm sure it is normal to be silly at 3 (whatever "normal" means), but it really gets wearing after a while.

Have only just picked up on this thread.

Can't believe the headteacher is getting involved in a couple of 3 year olds being silly. Doesn't she have anything better to do?????

What sort of problems does Ben have? It sounds to me as if he needs a friend, not to be discouraged to have one. That is how children learn about relationships with each other, particularly if he has behavioural problems. Once he has 'mastered' being friends with your dd that might encourage him to go and seek other friends, or if your dd plays with other children hopefully he will gain the confidence to join in. So I'd ignore the teachers and carry on - it sounds like his mum needs a friend too.

The school probably is used to 5 to 11 year olds who on the whole behave themselves and generally act in the sensible way that 5 to 11 year olds act at school, and is not used to the way 3 year olds behave. I think that as long as the teacher can contain a childs behaviour then there is nothing to worry about. It's the uncontrollable ones that should be worried about.