My 6yo is not a nice person

[Indecisivelurcher]

So I'll start with saying that of course I love her and so does dh. I'm also a very proactive parent hence asking for some help. Because my 6yo is not very nice. Her teacher has reported that she's the ring leader in her friendship group at school, and instigates leaving out one girl in particular, being spiteful and reducing her to tears. She's insolent to adults, for example when asked to pick something up, she'll say why me, or but x was there too. When called out on these behaviours her reaction is to smile. The thing is I'm not sure it's as simple as pulling her up on these behaviours or punishing her.

At home, we find she's wired up to negative thinking, she takes perceived criticism to heart, can't cope with anyone laughing 'at' her, internalise these things and can't sleep, beats herself up inside. I don't know how to deal with this.

Any advice wise mners?!

Also to say that she has always been like this! I could give examples with strangers friends, family and dh.

Bump for the after school cup of tea crowd

Final feeble attempt...

Sorry, not much help. But I’m in a similar boat w my dd who is 8...

I’m going to try to ask how would she feel if that happened to her (when someone was left out.)

At least I'm in company @Mamabear12

A friend suggested this to me: theimaginationtree.com/alternative-elf-on-shelf-tradition-kindness-elf-kindness-elves/

Have just ordered some crocheted elves off etsy!

Thanks for sharing. Lovely idea. But my dd is too old for this I think. She found out santa isn’t real or tooth fairy etc so she knows it’s me. But perhaps I could make it a suggestion we come up w kind acts to do during the month of December. This daily elf thing I would not have much time for anyway...three kids and a dog (youngest is almost 1). I like the idea though.

Oo crikey, as I don't own an 8yo yet I'm fairly horrified - only 2yrs away!

2 kids and a dog, I don't think it'll be daily and it's not turning up till mid December 😉

Have you spoken to school? Dd's teacher is going to get her included in a pastoral group taken out for extra support around emotional stuff, when they're talking about something relevant. Your Dd may be too old.

At home we're going on an offensive to stamp out backchat, get her being more helpful, and ask lots about how she's making other people feel, and generally emphasis being considerate.

@Mamabear12 while I've got you, do you mind if I ask, has your daughter always been like this? Or is it recent?

Have a read of rejection disphoria, your last paragraph sounds a little like that, and it is a symptom of ADHD (in case anything else she does matches).

The teachers told me that they have noticed that she isn’t aware of hurting others feelings. That she may be too direct. They asked if I noticed anything.

She has always been like this. I keep telling her to be nice etc. She can also be very nice as well. But she can also be mean. But doesn’t see that she is being mean.

I will do some research on tips and will let you know if I find anything.

@AuntyJack the description does fit very squarely and it's not the first time I've had cause to look up adhd symptoms for dd. Also in particular she can't deal with change. However she doesn't show what could be called the main symptoms of adhd at the mo. I think only time will tell with that.

I love my attachment theory and yet find it the most difficult thing to actually put into practice as everydayness happens.
A psychologist - Crittenden talks about when a child feels unsafe or distress they will seek safety, comfort, proximity and predictability.
So at school if you daughter is feeling like the 'underdog' which makes her feel (all about her perception) unsure then she has learnt to react a certain way to counteract it.
As you say she perceives criticism to heart and internalises which keeps her up at night. Validating emotions and feelings, using stories so she can relate to characters and encourage talking are useful. The key is to listen without adjusting what happened - just go with what she is saying (even if a teacher has said something else).
It's about your daughter practising expressing her feelings. Then asking "when you feel like ..... you behave like ....." "What could we do differently?"
You've got this, coz as you say, you love her x

Thank you @raising2children for some reason that's given me a little tear.

Bump.

awww, I hope a tear because it's chuffing hard and we care so much. I hope I haven't upset you - being a parent is the hardest thing I've ever done so I like to feel apart of a community that can prop each other up. x

@raising2children most definitely!

The thing is I'm not sure it's as simple as pulling her up on these behaviours or punishing her.

OP you sound lovely and I'm sure you are right that there's more to it than pulling her up or punishing her.

But I do think you need to begin with that. She needs to understand her behavior is unacceptable- both for the sake of the other kids and for her own sake.

If you can get her firmly into the understanding that this is not ok you may then be able to figure out what's driving it and help her work through it.

I really feel for you as it's so hard when someone you love just isn't behaving like a nice person. I think lots of kids don't spontaneously have that much empathy and need to be taught boundaries and how to interact with others. Then when good behavior becomes normal you can work in the empathy.

She sounds very insecure - bullying, not, not liking change. When she isn't being tricky do you point out why x y z is wrong and ask her why she does it? Or is there no getting through to her?

Not the same but one of daughters has a very short fuse for a period of time, very snappy that stood out amongst the others who are the opposite. We focused not so much pulling her up at the time beyond telling her to stop but on later thst day when she was calm explaining to her why it was bad, what she was missing by being like it and what the consequences were. It gradually reduced over a year as she learnt to deal with the frustrations thst led to it. She improved beyond recognition but we had to be incredibly consistent.

Thank you for the last posts. She is insecure seeming yes but goodness knows why.

My thinking at the mo is that I don't necessarily care what she feels about it (in this scenario) but she absolutely will be polite to other people. I have explained properly when she's calm. It's been a tough week. Lots of time outs. Her pleases and thank yous have improved at home and less back chat. I've given her a challenge to tell me one kind thing that she did at school every day. And we've got a kindness elf come to stay for Christmas who notices kind and caring acts.

Trying to do the other side of the coin too, have had serious chats with dh and done some (more!) reading. Dh has been engaging with her more even when he's initially rejected. I've promised a living room sleep over tonight face palm

Somehow need to get 3yo to bed, sleep on the floor with 6yo, move an elf and also be a tooth fairy!!!! Wish me luck...

I wouldn't exactly say that your DD is "not a nice person", more she is a child with social skills difficulties. The smile is not insolence (although it is probably the most infuriating thing she could do!) it is a sign of panic and trying to keep control. Yes, I've seen that smile myself (I might even have worn it sometimes )

You're right that pulling her up might not achieve much and punishing her often is likely to send her further along the spiral. One thing to do is to recognise and react positively to every bit of pro-social behaviour - every bit of kindness or politeness or co-operation or obedience - that she achieves when you're around to see it. Because these behaviours are not easy for her. So in addition to getting her to report on kindness, you can help her by noticing them and labelling them for her.

She is showing a mix of troubles. There's a book I like called Unwritten Ruls of Friendship which takes a look at many different kinds of social difficulties that cdifferent children can have. I like it because it gives exercises that you can do to help your child learn these "unwritten rules" of kindness and politeness and develop the positive side of your child's character. Have a look especially at the sections on the Intimidating Child, Born Leader, Pessimistic Child and Sensitive Soul as it sounds as if she has some traits from each of these.

You might also want to look into communication and de-escalation techniques. Sounds as if you ask her do something, she refuses or is rude, you tell her off, and it all blows up from there and ends in tears and self blame. With some children you can stop trouble before it starts by just not reacting to the first thing she says. Count to 10, then repeat the instruction with the same or fewer words. You might find she just does it (possibly with grumbling but ignore that, you've won). Some kids have a few seconds processing delay and so their first reaction is say "no" to an instruction or request. But given that time to process they are able to listen to what you want and put it on their mental agenda. With my son, I used a lot of "count to three and consequence" - by the time I'd told him exactly what to do and told him the consequence and counted to 3 he had time to figure it out and decide to do it. "Will you do it now or in five minutes?" works for him too, he always says "five minutes" but it is so much calmer than telling him to do it right now.

My thinking at the mo is that I don't necessarily care what she feels about it (in this scenario) but she absolutely will be polite to other people.

That may work, good if it does. If it doesn't get better you may need to look into deeper difficulties such as autism-spectrum. Not dealing with change and not being aware she is hurting or offending others or not understanding how what she is saying is hurtful... that could (possibly) be ASC.

Thank you @AmaryllisNightAndDay, is it worth adding that book to my reading pile? Some are new, some I've read before.

I discussed with her teacher whether it's a not caring smile or an embarrassed or complicated smile, the jury is out still but am aware it might not be insolence.

When I say she's not nice, I suppose that's a bit trying to get clicks. Honestly though when she was 2 she dropped a hat in the road, a lady saw, picked it up, waited in her house all morning until we passed on the way back home and ran out to return it. Dd didn't say thank you or smile, she could have set the poor woman on fire with her eyes, and turned her back on her. I was mortified. My point is I do think that she's always been like this and always will be. But that she'll have to learn to modify her behaviour, for her own sake and for a happier life.

I'll bear your good advice in mind, while I try to figure out the best thing.

I like your reading list "The Unwritten Rules" is focussed on children with social difficulties so it should add something.

Something I saw yesterday: Dad and little boy walking to school. Another man coming the other way, says to the boy "Hello Jack". Dad tells boy "say hello, Jack". Little boy says cheerfully "hellooo!" and they all walk on. Perfectly ordinary, teaching moment. But not something that I could ever have expected from my DS. Social skills problems can be like that.

That's how it would go down with my son, definitely not with my daughter! 😁 Ill check out that book, thank you

I had to adapt manners for DS. He was no good at greetings or goodbyes so I used to send him upstairs to wave people off from the window instead. That might be too extreme for your DD (DS's issues were big enough for an ASC diagnosis) but just adapting things so your DD will do them in a slightly unusual way might work better than getting embarrassed and angry because she doesn't do them at all. And play to her strengths. My DS might not have been able to say thankyou but (with a bit of help) his thankyou letters were a joy to behold. So that's what we got him to do!