Hysterical crying - is this REALLY normal??

[MrsBumblebee]

My 3 wk old is driving us to distraction with his crying. He typically has between two and four sessions a day when he screams solidly for two hours or so. And when I say he screams, I mean he really screams - I can't imagine he could cry any harder if I was sticking needles in him. One of these sessions is always late evening (9-11ish), but others can be any time during the day. Feeding him calms him down temporarily, but sometime he starts to scream the minute he's come off the breast. For a while I thought it must be hunger, but feeding him constantly doesn't help, and even when I gave him a formula feed in desperation it didn't make a blind bit of difference.

I'm sure the problem is stomach pains - he's always kicking and bringing up his knees, and you can actually see him having spasms of pain, even when he's on the breast. But I don't know the root cause. He's very difficult to wind, to the extent that I can rarely get a burp out of him, however long I try. He passes a lot of wind out of his bottom instead, and you can hear his stomach gurgling away all the time.

A related problem is that he hates being put down to sleep on his back - I think because it makes his stomach hurt more. He flatly refuses to sleep in his moses basket, and he's even resisting co-sleeping on his back - in both situations he initially goes down quite happily, but his stomach pains seem to wake him up (or at least disturb his sleep) after a few minutes. The only way he sleeps soundly is on his stomach on my chest, but I daren't sleep myself in that position so I'm knackered.

DH and I are really at the end of our tether, and I would appreciate any advice. For the record, we've already tried Infacol, tummy massage and cranial osteopathy, and so far nothing has helped. The only thing that calms him down slightly is vigorous movement, particularly outdoors (like a walk in his sling, or constant bouncing up and down) - but although that stops him crying for a little while, it doesn't actually help him to sleep.

All the MWs I've talked to just say that this is a phase, and that it's normal - but none of the other new mums I've talked to have experienced anything like this level of crying. Is it just him, or do others have this experience as well?

Sorry about the long post. If anyone has any advice, I'd be so grateful!!

Hi MrsBumblelee, I have a friend that had a baby with exactly this problem and they ( in desperation) because they are not cheap bought an amby hammock, it made a massive difference to their little one. Maybe worth a try??

It sounds like colic. Has your HV been able to offer any support? My sympathies!

I have no advice realy.

But just to let you know you are not alone. I have a 5 week who is the same. I found Infracol made it worse.

DD is formula feed, so we switch to Dentranox (sp to tired to go to kitchen to find correct sp ). Which can be added to her bottle, which seem to help. Have also changed from SMA Gold to Cow & Gate comfort which as made a vast improvment in the last day.

MrsBumblebee, if your baby is breasfed, what you eat makes a big difference to him. So if you eat a lot of veggies or a mix of fruit or spicy/ tomato paste type meals - it might upset his stomach.

Have you tried swaddling him? It will give him a feeling of comfort and security. You might also want to put something warm on his belly (even a bottle with warm water might work).

Also, even if he doesn't burp easily, keep him up right after feedings. It should help him to settle the food rather than having it travel up if you put him down.

Lastly, try putting him on his belly. He might not like it but it really-really helps with digestion.

And yes - it will pass - for some reasons little boys have more troubles with their tummies than little girls. Trust me - my son is only 20 months old. I still remember

Good luck

MrsBumblebee, could it be reflux - the pain and the not liking to lie flat. If ds is not bringing up anything, it could be what is called 'silent reflux'. Does he sleep better slightly inclined, eg in a carseat?

Can you get a doctor to check him out? It might be good to eliminate medical causes first.

Katendmom, I'm afraid it is a huge myth that what you eat passes into the breastmilk. Some mums will swear black and blue that eating xyz affect their baby. I thought my eating oranges gave my baby gas, but then once ds got past the colicky stage, it really had no effect on ds - it was just pure coincidence. bee, I don't think you need to worry about your diet, hth

Thanks for the tips. Re the reflux, it's odd - sometimes he's really sicky, other times not at all. Though usually a lot of sick means he's about to have a bad crying session. And I'll definitely try putting him on his stomach, if not to sleep then at least to aid his digestion.

Mrs Bumblebee you are describing my DS3 who is now 18 months. The screaming was soul destroying, nothing calmed him. He hated going out in the car seat, he hated sleeping on his back - even raised on a pillow, he hated sitting in his baby sling chair. At best we could swaddle him reasonably firmly and lay him on his side, slightly raised in the pushchair and take him for a vigorous walk. I felt so sorry for my older children who had to sit next to this purple sweating screaming ball of rage/pain everytome we went out in the car.
As for what worked -I never found the answer, he has slept on his front from 12 weeks - obviously against all the experts advice, I put him in a stage 2 car seat at 5 months so that he could be more upright and forward facing, again against the advise of the HV - both things helped but you can't do it with a 3 weeker.

It did help when, having had his 6 week check with the Dr and all medical things were ruled out, to just decide to give myself over to it. Life as I had hoped to lead it in DS3's early weeks was hung on a peg and life that involved DS3 being glued to me for security and warmth and love took over. If it hadn't I would have gone mad.

Hi Mrs Bumblebee

What kind of birth did he have? And position in utero? (I know they are quite personal questions so no worries about answering them! - it's just that both are often quite significant in terms of what you're describing).

I posted the message below on the other v similar thread so you might have seen it already. Like a few others have mentioned, cranial treatment is something I would absolutely recommend and getting booked in asap is a really good move.

I'd opt for a chiropractor who specialises in paediatrics and who treats with chiro and cranial techniques.

It does sound like you are describing reflux, or silent reflux, but a skilled practitioner will get to the root of it all and sort out whatever is causing your lo to be in discomfort. They should also talk you through sleeping positions, feeding positions, position after feeds etc and also talk about things like never patting your baby to wind him - only gently rub or sit him up and bend forward v v gently and not too far. But def no patting. Also usually be able to tell you lots of useful extra things like homeopathic remedy to try at same time (usually aethusa for relux, but if you call helios - find no. at www.helios.co.uk - and describe exact and details symptoms they will advise you what to try).

Sorry this reply is a bit long!

My daughter had reflux and it was nipped in the bud by chiro cranial. What a relief. So distressing to watch her in pain; the treatment was absolutely wonderful.

Here's a useful link to tell you more about the gentle treatment involved and explain what can have caused the kind of symptoms you are talking about.

www.barnes-chiropractic.co.uk/babies_and_children.html

(If for any reason it doesn't work, just go to www.barnes-chiropractic.co.uk and click on the babies section).

My dh is a chiro specialising in pregnancy and paeds and treating with chiro and cranial and I am so passionate about the amazing things the treatment can do - good for baby and ultimately good for parents too! I've been lucky to experience it firsthand and also hear feedback from his patients time and again and I just wish HV's etc knew about it and could help empower more people with the knowledge.

Best wishes and I really hope you can get an appt with someone local to you asap.

Thinking of you and your lo.

Sara xx

---

Here's my message from the other thread:

Hi buddum

Treatment from a chiropractor who specialises in paediatrics is what I'd recommend. Its very gently, very settling and very effective for helping your baby and you too.

Fast births can impact on what they term minor birth trauma and the resulting symptoms - such as those you are describing - can be the visible signs that you get from slight disruptions to the nervous system. I'm rubbish at explaining it! But here's a link to a really great page of info. Should explain all about it. Getting booked in as early as you can is also a great move as, but it's also 'never too late'. This page explains all about the effects of the birth process etc and gives info about the gentle treatment:

www.barnes-chiropractic.co.uk/babiesandchildren.html

I'm so fortunate that dh is a chiro cranial specialising in paediatrics and pregnancy so I've seen how amazing it has been for our daughter and also for patients of his who I've met too.

Best of luck.

I thoroughly recommend doing it. If look up a local clinic in your area just ask them if they are experienced in babies.

Sara x
Contact the poster Contact mumsnet about this post By

Kate, sorry, but must combat this myths, whilst sometimes some foods may or may not effect your child when breastfeeding, this rarely ever is an issue....

TO OP...could this be reflux?
Sometimes reflux doesn't show by big sicking up sessions, sometimes it can be silent reflux, which is caused by gastric acid being pushed up into the oesophagus causing severe pain.
This will often get better when the Baby is kept upright a lot of the time.
Could this be the problem?

sounds just like my baby and its the answer every doctor/health visitor gave and i didn't believe them but it was the mystical 'wind'...my daughter hardly every burped until she was 3 months and then it did magically dissappear, it tried all the wind products - infacol etc etc, was b/feeding so tried to watch what i ate drank but none of it made any differnce, went to cranial oestopath and didn't help at all, the only thing u can do it wait till 12 weeks and it does stop! she used scream soo loud and go soo red i was convinced there was something seriously wrong with her so don't worry it notrmal!we used put her along our arm - that tiger in tree position and that used help her, also put her over the knee to get her to poo which seemed to ease things but the thing to focus on is that it does end!!

Hi Mrs Bumblebee

Just realised that I posted the longest message in history. I'm so sorry! Please read it though!!

Best wishes
x

You say you've tried cranial, how many times? You may need to go weekly for a while, you also need to get a peadiatric specialist (as per sara's recommendation).

My DD was a different child from the first treatment, still went for several weeks and my DS took much longer (far more birth trauma).

Thanks everyone. In answer to your questions, Sara, he was ROA ceph in late pregnancy, then had a ventouse delivery (failed a couple of times). My osteo says he's a classic ventouse case - loads of tension and tightness. However, on the less positive side, he also thinks he's a lot better after the two sessions we've had so far - but there hasn't been any improvement in his crying. I'm still going to go along for at least another two sessions, though, after which the osteo will reassess.

Weston and uptomyeyes, thanks for the sympathy. I actually found it very reassuring what you said about accepting that he's likely to be like this until he's three months or so, and keep trying to remember that it will end. I'll keep on trying other options as well, like the osteo and different products, but I think it's probably unwise to hold out too much hope for them, otherwise I'll just be really disappointed when they don't work.

3andnogore, yes, I guess it could be reflux. It's odd - he's very sicky after some feeds, but not at all after others. But keeping him upright definitely makes him much happier, particularly if he's gently bouncing at the same time, so sounds like it could be that?

I've found in the last day or two that white noise helps hugely in calming him down (god knows why). Luckily I've got a CD of it, so I don't need to have the hoover on all the time.

Getting him to sleep comfortably is still a problem. He slept on the big bed propped up by a V cushion last night, and that seemed to help him. I'm not sure if it's safe from a SIDS point of view, though, or whether it will do his back any favours, as I thought newborns were always supposed to lie flat?

What you are describing is exactly how my youngest dd was,had she not been my 6th (and Im a mw) I would have thought this behaviour was normal. My dd would scream constantly and seemed to be in pain, she would not settle anywhere and seemed uncomfortable, she was small and didnt really gain weight, we tried a lot of things for her, sling, swing, bouncer etc etc she was also quite a rashy baby. I saw my doctor who was incredibly supportive and it turned out dd was lactose intolerant.

At 3 weeks, I wouldn't say this was normal, but I would say it was probably colic. Not every baby gets colic so there will be many people around you not experiencing this horrible situation.

All I can advise is keep going with the cranial osteopathy, grit your teeth and prepare yourself to see it out to 12 weeks. Sorry, I know you were not expecting this .

Both my dcs suffered colic. It was horrible. They did both settle earlier than the 3 month magic deadline. If it goes beyond this you may get a diagnosis of reflux or lactose intolerance from your GP, but before this time they will probably advise you to wait til 3 months anyway. All this based on the fact that most babies with colic grow out of it by then.

Sorry can't be more helpful. You are in the most trying time of your baby's life, keep posting here for support and a shoulder. Many of us know exactly what you're going through.

P.S. Don't forget to try and get a good burp after every feed. .

Thanks again. I think lactose intolerance is unlikely from the symptoms you describe, helenhismadwife, as the baby is thriving in other ways - gaining plenty of weight, good skin and generally quite healthy, according to the HV. But thanks for the tip, and if it does carry on longer than 3 months then I'll get it checked out.

Daphne, it's good to know that your dcs' colic got better before 12 weeks. I think Paul's been a little bit better in the last couple of days - he's slept a bit more and is easier to console, and he's also more alert and aware of his surroundings, which makes him a bit easier to distract. So here's hoping!

Mrs Bumblebee: my DD was incredibly miserable and unsettled for the first few months of her life and used to scream for hours. The HV and my GP told me it was colic and that she would have to grow out of it - true, but scant consolation when you are exhausted and depressed.

I tried every remedy on the market including gripe water, Infacol, cranial osteopathy, swaddling, formula feeding, breast feeding etc. In the end, time was the only real solution.

It does pass - I promise. One day you will be able to look back at this period with a smile of relief. Your LO will get better, just take each day at a time, use MN for support, and try to look after yourself as best you can. XX

My DS was ventouse and very quick / violent birth. I can't prove that cranial osteo helped but I believe it did. You could see him move when they were doing certain things to him and I definitely thought it made him more settled (but given the money I spent, I know I was lookig for evidence of results!!!) I second all the comments about finding someone who is a baby specialist. Plus you also need a few treatments for it to be effective.

Even if that wasn't the magic solution and it was just time, it gave me the mental comfort that I was doing something to help him and I found it very helpful to have the osteo to talk to about all his crying. So guess it was half therapy for me also!!

Hi MrsbumbleBee, I know you started this thread at the weekend so not sure if you are still reading this but...you have my deep sympathy - I know how soul destorying that kind of crying can be . It does not sound normal to me. From what you describe it might be reflux. If this is the case, infacol etc. will not help and I'm not sure how things cranial osteopathy would work (sorry to those who swear by it - I'm not disputing, I just don't understand)given that it is a physiological problem. DO push your GP for a referral if your instincts are that there is a problem - mine wrote DS off as "just colic" - it wasn't. It was Reflux and he was in serious pain - there are treatments out there that can help but GPs are reluctant to prescribe. Also, try elevating your DS's cot (books for example under the mattress at the head end as lying flat just allows the the acid to wash back up. In terms of winding, try lying DS down (on back) then picking back up again - the change of position used to really help for us. Oh also, if it IS reflux then lying on his stomach may not help - again, the pressure can just push up the acid. Don't feel you have to wait three months - many cases of "colic" are actually undiagnosed reflux. Sorry for the long post - hope things get better for you both.

Poor poor you. I do so remember all that worry and how awful it is. Try everything, you have to as sometimes things work.

This might be hard to hear, but from our experience, time was the only thing that resolved it. Our DS was ventouse (failed a few times), then forceps after a long labour and he did the drawing his knees up to his chest too. Like you, we worried that it wasn't normal and I couldn't believe it when everyone said it was just colic as to see your baby in so much distress seems so wrong and cruel.

What I wish someone had told me is that it wasn't my fault and that nothing that I was doing was wrong. I was constantly trying to cure him/ change how I held him, etc, etc. The more wound up you are, the more wound up he'll become, the less sleep he gets, the more distressed he'll be. Definitely with our DS, holding him and staying calm made him calmer and more comfortable.

I slept with him tummy down on my chest and for the first 10 weeks that was the only way he'd sleep. (obviously meant I got hardly any as I was so scared of squashing him!)Felt like it would never end and I've never felt so mad or cried so much from exhaustion either, but then all of a sudden he was so much better. The three month milestone does seem to be the point when most of them calm.

I'd say it's really just love that gets them through, just don't go mad in the process. Have to say it was touch and go with me, so I can only send you huge hugs of strength. It will get better, I promise.

So glad to hear your ds seems a bit better and like you say as he is thriving it is very unlikely its lactose intolerance, I hope it stops soon and you can start to really enjoy him, as others have said its so distressing to hear them cry and so soul destroying and knackering.