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5yo physically violent towards older sibling

3 replies

ginberry4 · 21/08/2020 21:32

DD(5.5) is academically bright, has lots of friends, no additional needs, her language skills are excellent, she is very good at articulating how she feels and is generally a very sweet & thoughtful little girl. However, we have an ongoing issue with her being physically violent towards DS(10) when she gets cross or frustrated.

Sometimes DS may wind her up, sometimes I may say no to her doing something but the result is always the same - she goes straight to DS and screams & yells at him, scratches, hits, punches or kicks him. She just can’t control her temper once rage sets in.

She’s been doing this now for a long time and no matter what consequence we give, she still continues to hurt him.

Time out doesn’t seem enough of a deterrent now she’s getting older so we’ve also tried:
Removing screen time
Removing a favourite toy
Natural consequences - e.g. she got angry when I said she had to get dressed before getting a toy out and scratched DS, so she was not allowed the toy she wanted.
Reasoning with her - explaining that it’s not ok, would she like him to come and scratch her etc.
Asking her why she hits him when she is calm & discussing better ways to deal with her anger in the heat of the moment.

None of which have improved the situation. She has outbursts on a daily basis, sometimes several times a day & it feels like we are constantly walking on eggshells trying not to set her off.

We don’t want DS to grow up feeling like we didn’t do enough to protect him - he shouldn’t have to live in fear of being attacked by her every day and short of telling him to hit her back (which he has never ever done) we just don’t know what else to do.

DS is starting to really dislike her & I worry for the future of their relationship if this carries on.

If anyone has any words of wisdom or advice on suitable consequences for a child of her age we’d very much appreciate them.

Just to add: We have never used violence as punishment and she has never been exposed to any domestic violence within our home.

OP posts:
LeGrandBleu · 22/08/2020 00:44

So even if she is angry with you or annoyed by something you said, she directs her rage at her brother, right.

She has outbursts on a daily basis, sometimes several times a day & it feels like we are constantly walking on eggshells trying not to set her off.

I think this is your mistake. You have put her at the centre of the household and given her a power she doesn't deserve. She lashes at her brother and not at you because she can. You have changed the way you live and talk in order not to upset her.

Tomorrow morning, when you wake her up, tell her you need to talk to her. Bring her at the kitchen table and have the brother next to her. Tell her that today is a new day and that she is not allowed to be nasty verbally or physically anymore. She is old enough to control herself and if not, she'd better learn quickly because otherwise she will be left with nothing, as for every scream, you remove forever something she likes, her favourite dress, her bike, favourite doll, for every physical attack, no matter if a tiny scratch out a hard kick, TWO things are removed. Every time, she will be send to her room and you must enforce it. Her behaviour is unacceptable, she will be punished for it and send away,

And do it. Put the stuff in the car, and bring it to a friend, family member or a charity shop, depending on how serious and fart you want to go with it.

Tell you son, you don't know why she acts like this, sometimes people do strange things, but this is not excuse, and that he will not have to endure her attacks, verbal and/or physical anymore. He has been very patient over this long period of time and you want to thank him by giving him something he really want (trainers, hoodie, ball, ...) and that this is over now, you will make sure of it.

The consequences need to be unpleasant. It is time to put your foot down and regain control of the household.

corythatwas · 22/08/2020 12:16

Bring her at the kitchen table and have the brother next to her. Tell her that today is a new day and that she is not allowed to be nasty verbally or physically anymore. She is old enough to control herself and if not, she'd better learn quickly because otherwise she will be left with nothing, as for every scream, you remove forever something she likes, her favourite dress, her bike, favourite doll, for every physical attack, no matter if a tiny scratch out a hard kick, TWO things are removed. Every time, she will be send to her room and you must enforce it. Her behaviour is unacceptable, she will be punished for it and send away,

I would be careful before I tried this approach. The two children in my family who displayed similar behaviour both had some MH issues though in one case it wasn't properly diagnosed until years later. In both cases, their behaviour was connected to deep underlying anxiety. A gradual removal of possessions would simply have meant that eventually they had no toys or clothes left and that the behaviour would have escalated. Removing their comfort toy would have sent them completely over the edge.

At the same time, there was the obvious issue of needing to protect siblings- particularly for my dd whose brother was 3 years younger.

In the other instance, I was one of the siblings, so have an idea of the impact on us.

First of all, we knew exactly what behaviour was expected of us: we did not have to accept unfairness, we were not held responsible for db's meltdowns, we did not have to spend our lives on tiptoes.

But we did have to realise that there were certain situations he couldn't cope with and that our parents would have little sympathy with anyone who deliberately put him in those situations for the fun of it. An older child deliberately teasing or winding a younger child up was unacceptable and we knew it.

At the same time, we also knew that if a meltdown happened, our parents would intervene immediately to keep us safe. We would have to remove ourselves from the immediate target area, but they would not allow us to get hurt. Db would be restrained rather than allowed to hurt anyone. We had locks on our doors and were allowed to use them.

It also helped that fighting was not allowed at all in our household, so there were no grey areas. Any physical violence would be broken up immediately, and the offenders sent off to separate rooms.

It is not quite clear, OP, whether your dd has actual meltdowns- i.e. times when she is totally out of control and hardly knows what she is doing, or if her behaviour is more deliberate. If it is the latter, then you can punish for it, though I would be wary of the kind of punishment that spirals out of control. You can also combine punishment with positive reinforcement, praising her for when she finds a better way of dealing with anger.

If it is a proper meltdown, then I wouldn't punish or even mention it much in retrospect. A child like this will be terrified of the violence within them and will need the reassurance that this isn't really who they are. They may not even remember clearly what it is they've done: I'm not sure my db did, but I do know from dd (who speaks much more openly about her inner life) that she lost touch with reality at some point.

ginberry4 · 23/08/2020 22:05

Thankyou for the replies, only just got round to reading them now. It’s given me lots to think about.

So even if she is angry with you or annoyed by something you said, she directs her rage at her brother, right.

Yes. She sometimes hits out at me or DH, but usually DS bears the brunt of it.

I think this is your mistake. You have put her at the centre of the household and given her a power she doesn't deserve. She lashes at her brother and not at you because she can. You have changed the way you live and talk in order not to upset her.

This is food for thought. Perhaps you are right. We don’t completely avoid all situations that will upset her and definitely do say no to her - I don’t want you thinking she gets her own way for fear of upsetting her - it’s more that we often know that a given situation will set her off and it just feels like a ticking time bomb waiting for her to explode. But I know that’s not a healthy way for us to live and fully acknowledge it needs to change.

A gradual removal of possessions would simply have meant that eventually they had no toys or clothes left and that the behaviour would have escalated. Removing their comfort toy would have sent them completely over the edge.

I’m on the fence about the continued & permanent removal of possessions (for one I can’t afford to chuck it all away!). We do currently do it (usually 1 item) but she gets it back after a given amount of time (usually next day). Perhaps I need to be more harsh in that respect but sometimes I find that the more I punish the worse her behaviour gets and it’s like we get stuck in a really negative cycle. I can’t quite bring myself to remove her favourite comfort toy. We did it once and she was very, very distressed so I vowed not to do it again.

I do agree I need to sit her down (again) & set out that this is never ever to happen again. And set out some firm consequences.

It is not quite clear, OP, whether your dd has actual meltdowns- i.e. times when she is totally out of control and hardly knows what she is doing, or if her behaviour is more deliberate.

I don’t think it’s an actual meltdown. She gets angry but not uncontrollably so. It’s interesting you mention MH problems & anxiety - I’ve never thought of her as anxious so I’ll watch her more closely for signs. If anything I’ve always thought it’s my non hitter who is the more anxious one.

An older child deliberately teasing or winding a younger child up was unacceptable and we knew it.

This is the one of the things we struggle with most. DS does at times, deliberately wind her up & she reacts. So who do you punish? Her for hitting or him for winding her up. We immediately remove her from the room & away from DS but often find out later once she’s calm that he’s said or done something that she deems unfair. I don’t want to lay blame on DS as it’s not his fault she reacts the way she does but equally sometimes he doesn’t help the situation.

I think perhaps I need to resign myself to the fact I can no longer leave them unattended for even a minute. Their fall outs and attacks usually happen when I nip to the loo, or am cooking or out of the room making lunch. I intervene as soon as I get in there but it’s already too late.

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