Looking for advice on typical 2 year old

[Frootytooty567]

Hello

I don't really have any friends or family to ask so I hope someone can help me here.
My DD has always been a little quirky but to be honest I never thought about it as a problem because a lot of things I see in myself. I'm not very social and I'm quite shy.
However I'm worrying there might be something else going on here. I'm actually waiting on appointments for her to be referred.

She's 27 months old and I'll list some traits here:
Cries at strangers, especially if she has to stay in one place (drs office, toddler group) although with toddler group she eventually stopped crying and clinging to me to have a wonder but I was exhausted trying to distract her the whole time. this was her first time going to toddler group. She's never really had the opportunity to mix with other kids for one reason or another (I feel very guilty about this) so I'm trying to involve her now as much as I can.
Ever since she was a baby she has been very wary of strangers.
She says probably 80 words but doesn't really request things she wants, she will either get them herself or bring it to me to help her. She doesn't always use words either, she won't reply to questions but will say things when she sees them, example duck, cake, dog etc
She seems to understand some things. Example she can close a door/turn off a light/get her shoes if I ask, without me gesturing. Although this is recent.
She's very excitable and always has been wanting to be on the go. She walked at 11 months and hasn't looked back.
She sometimes flaps her hands and gets on tip toes when she's particularly excited and squeals sometimes.
She only has ever really pointed to things close up but when she sees something familiar she will look at it and then look back at me with a smile. She will only point close up at the tv or food to request it. She saw a plane in the sky the other day and said "plane" whilst smiling too but didn't point. She will most likely repeat it until I acknowledge it.

It almost feels as though she's quite stubborn and she only does things when she wants to. She gets moany and frustrated if we tell her to say bye to people or ask her to do something.

I just feel so worried and I've got no one to talk to about it. I just feel like everywhere I look, not pointing is a certain diagnosis for autism. I just want to help her and I don't know how.

Please reply . I'm desperate.

Don't panic all these quirks are part of normal toddler behaviour. It's great to be aware of ASD traits, but I think you need to consider the bigger picture. She is pointing. My DS has never pointed at a plane ( we live under a flight path and to be honest, a plane going past is not a special thing here). She had the awareness to notice a plane. She is asking you to look at things by bringing them to you. So that is shared interest, a good sign.

Separation anxiety again is normal, every DC has their own personality and copes with new things different. If she's never been to a toddler group then it will be overwhelming to start with.

I think with the flapping and getting excited it's about context. If she saw her most favourite thing in the whole world, yes normal. Doing it multiple times an hour that's unusual. Same with the tiptoes. Doing it one time a day is an experiment like spinning or running in circles, always walking that way is excessive.

Some things have to be taught. Things like "look" points at duck on the pond. If you never do it she never experiences it.

Labelling /naming items is the first stage of talking.

You are being a great parent worrying about her development. Is her 2 year old check soon? I'd fill in the forms honestly and see what the HV says. Don't be afraid to mention your concerns, and see what support they can offer, but don't get so fixated on it being ASD.

I think your'e the right thing to get her out to see how other toddlers play, but at 2 years they still play solo.

@sleepingdogssnore thank you so much for replying. I really appreciate it.

With the flapping, it's not always flapping, sometimes she tenses up, sometimes with tip toes. She can seem to control it, if I call her or something for example. She does do it more than once per day but it's always at her favourite toys/TV shows.
Shes recently figured out saying bye properly and waving, she's never really bothered before. But she just keeps repeating it sometimes and looking at me until I say "yes, bye". Is this normal? She does this with other things too, sometimes she will name something and look at me, but not always. She loves learning her numbers and will say them and look at me for each one for praise. She will sometimes make little "tut" noises too and chomp her teeth together... I'm not sure why, maybe her back molars?

I just feel lost and I don't trust my own judgement anymore.

I've spoken to HV and they didn't seem concerned but I've pushed for referrals. I keep seeing everywhere that no pointing to planes and far away things is always autism.

I think mainly the HVs lack of concern is because ASD is hard to diagnose before age 3/4, and as it generally presents in boys, so even harder to get a girl diagnosed early. Getting assessed or at least in the process does no harm. She may very well grow out of these behaviours. You are with her all the time, so trust your judgement, just remember it is true that all children develop at their own rate.

Why had you not mixed with other children until recently ? Was she unwell as that could of affected her development.

No, she had always been so scared of strangers so I used to just take her out with me to go shopping etc and to see family. She would sometimes cry then too, she's got much better but still doesn't like her one grandparents house for some reason. I returned to work and she stayed home with grandparents who didn't really take her anywhere with kids. Then I got pregnant and had a very bad pregnancy, and baby was very poorly when born so time just escaped me. I feel so guilty about all of it and I'm trying my best to make it up to her.
I do wonder sometimes if the new baby has affected her development somewhat. I had to abruptly stop breastfeeding DD and then she barely saw me for nearly 2 weeks. Then when baby came home she used to cry when the baby cried.. she eventually got used to it after a month or so. But I wonder if she's just learnt to tune things out.
Sorry for rambling!

I have read through your thread and it is a very interesting one. I assume your are alluding to autism concerns and I am sure that if you have Googled some of your concerns it would have taken you there. However, it is certainly not a clear cut case, and most of what you have written does not sound concerning to me, in fact, you give many examples of social referencing which is very positive. The only concerning thing that jumps out at me is her not pointing to share interests, as there is a high correlation between this and autism. Though she vocalizes that she has seen a plane and look back at you (for feedback) which tends to be the next steps after the pointing, i.e. as children get older their pointing reduces and is replaced by words (as one would expect). If she is only has 80 words I would not expect her to be able to answer any questions. Just because a child knows the word "duck" and you show them a duck and ask them "what is this?", with 80 words in their vocabulary I would not expect them to be able to answer "duck" - language development in toddlers does not work in such a linear fashion, a lot more work needs to happen in the background before she is able to answer that question.

Thanks for your input, I'm glad you think there's some positives here. She probably says closer to 100+ words, I got that wrong. I've been trying to keep track.
I'm so very worried about the pointing thing... Does it mean a definite problem? :(

Not necessarily, there has been a number of users in this forum whose children did not point until 2.5Y and seem to be developing typically, however, this is rare but it does happen. Most children naturally start pointing by 18M, both to request and to share, they will do this even if they have never seen anyone point before, so it is not a learned skill. This is similar to walking, children will eventually start walking from 12-18M by themselves, no one needs to show them how to do it. When this does not happen then naturally a pediatrician would ask why not. However, there are many positives in your description, many that you would not associate with autism. As a previous poster has mentioned it could be worth mentioning it to your GP/HV? has she had her 2YR checkup? was this discussed in that meeting? or other concerns raised?

Take her to a pond or something similar and ask can you see a duck. If she says yes, or doesn't naturally point then say where ? See if can get her to point to one. Show her you pointing " look mummy sees duck" point and then lower your arm and ask again. " Can you see a duck?" "Where mummy can't see it." Look the wrong way. See if she points to the duck.

When my DS didn't clap on schedule I thought oh no, but I realised I never clapped, he'd never seen it. Maybe to some babies it comes naturally but my DS has to learn it from me modelling it. Just a few weeks later he was clapping away after I started demonstrating.

I'm no way an expert on any of this, but I think it's natural to worry a bit when things aren't quite on some schedule you found on google even if they seem to suggest things incredibly early.

And do you know what as they say ASD is a spectrum so not everyone who has it is effected in a major way. I think building her confidence in new places will help, just get her used to things. If she's been with your other child she's not been completely alone. Sounds like a tough time, please be easy on yourself.

@AladdinMum out of interest do you have a child with Autism? You seem really knowledgeable

I really suspected it for a long time for my son, but he seems to be "normal" now. His development and speech was slow in many ways between 1-2. He had quirky habits too including stimming hand flashing & vocal ticks. All completely gone now 2 years later.

@sleepingdogssnore totally agree with your previous post, autism is a spectrum and it presents in many different ways; sometimes it is easy to see, other times it is not as easy (the best time to see it is always before 2YR old). There is no test for autism, we know that it affects social communication, and can only be diagnosed by looking at behaviors over a long period of time.

No, I do not have a child with autism but I am in the area of child development specializing in early diagnostic criteria of pervasive disorders like autism. Child development (before 2YR) is in some ways a complete mystery; I have seen many cases of parents having children showing many 'red flags' by 16M yet 'snapping out of it' by 18M and start developing skills really fast (as to make up or loss time) and develop normally, and quite equally children developing normally up to 18M and then suffer a regression (so start loosing skills fast) and be diagnosed with autism by 2YR old.

@AladdinMum that's really interesting that in your specialism you are staying diagnosis before 2. I was told around here, and I'm not naive enough to believe it's not just budget saving, but I was told to wait and see, as it's not until 3 ish onwards that children start to interact more and play together. So it was put to me that whilst there are behaviours that point to ASD earlier, that until they miss that social milestone at 3-3.5/4 that it's can't be properly diagnosed. I can see in extremes a diagnosis could be given. Or I was fobbed off again by HV's.

Actually we also encountered a girl via a speech group who's council SALT suggested autism and she went for some assessments and was diagnosed at 2.4. Then later on for there to be a lot of doubt around whether she actually had it or it was affecting her enough to have the diagnosis. She basically grew out of the behaviours within a year, her confidence grew as her speech slowly improved, very similar to my son. I particularly think my son's stimming was in place of words, as it was done in such a variety of situations it didn't seem to correlate with any transitions or stressful social situations. It is totally the unknown, but it's also presented as early intervention is the key with all these developmental issues, but there doesn't seem to actually be the interventions ( not unless you pay.) I know there are special preschools, but there isn't any in my borough and I know one child who travels a massive distance to attend one for 3 hours an afternoon. Is been brilliant for him they have delayed his school start to give him a year in the special school ( he has ASD now diagnosed before entering the school at 4 and was mute, but slowly getting there with the special school.)

OP @Frootytooty567 I know speech isn't a concern so much for your DD but my DS really benefited from some speech therapy privately. It's all play based at a young age anyway, it's helped him massively. They can assess what they understand as well as their level of expressive speech.

I disagree that the best time to see ASD is before 2 years old. My DS is almost 4 and we still have absolutely no idea as to whether he is on the spectrum or not. I suspect we won't know until he's much older, or maybe we'll never know.

I actually had no concerns before he turned 2, as he pointed at just turned 13 months (and pointed 100000 times a day once he started!), understood everything from a young age, spoke well and reached/exceeded all speech milestones. Was always very clear in communicating what he did or didn't want, and showed things of interest/shared enjoyment, laughs etc. Didn't have any repetitive behaviours, stims etc. No sensory sensitivities. A lot of people with children with ASD say that stims, repetitive behaviours and sensory sensitivities can come much later.

@sleepingdogssnore autism in many cases can be seen with high confidence by 2YR old (both in low and high functioning autism). However, I agree that there are cases that are not clear at all and a wait-and-see approach is needed. High functioning autism in girls can be hard to see at times as they become experts in masking and as they get older (2Y+) they get even better and hence even harder to see (in comparison boys don't tend to mask nowhere as good). I also agree that there will be mis-diagnosis, that is inevitable, but if that happens, as the child gets older and does not require any support the diagnosis label should drop off. It is true that children become more social from 3-4YRs old, but that would have been a very hard goal to reach for them, a goal that they would have been practicing towards since the first day they were born. Typically a baby is born to be social, and at a micro level they show very basic forms of social communication from day one. As they become older, so 1M old, 1YR old, 2YR old this social communication will always be there but with increasing complexity (from an initial social smile to much more complex gesture manipulation). For a child to reach 4YRs old and be able to approach another child in the park to ask to play with them would have required years of practice and 100's of previous milestones to be met - for us it might look simple but for them it would have been a monumental task. To see social communication in children you don't have to wait until they are 3 or 4YR old it will be there from day one and by 2YR old it will be either solid, weak or absent - with a high degree of confidence, that would be a very good predictor for a future autism diagnosis.

@tempnamechange98765 I assure you that, with high confidence, most cases of autism can be seen by 2YRs old - not all, but most. I have read your other thread listing your concerns with your son and I am surprised that they would have suggested autism. Autism is a social communication disorder but none of your concerns seem to be linked to social communication so slightly surprised. Autism is not a stimming disorder or a repetitive disorder or a sensory disorder or a language disorder - these are normally associated with autism but they do not define autism meaning that one can have autism without exhibiting any of those behaviors. But all children/adults with autism will shows deficits in social communication.

@AladdinMum by saying "high confidence" are you meaning with a high confidence in the diagnosis? Sorry Sleep deprived brain here!

@tempnamechange98765 I think the pointing thing can be a bit misleading. But it's like anything, not everyone is the same. I think what isn't always explained when the importance of pointing is mentioned is there are different types of pointing. One type or maybe both may be absent in children with ASD @AladdinMum is referring to declarative pointing when mentioning the importance of pointing to the plane in the sky.

Borrowed this from google ...

There are two types of pointing: Proto-imperative pointing represents desire for an object (for example, pointing to a cookie as a request), and Proto-declarative pointing indicates the desire to share an experience with another person (for example, a child pointing to a dog in the park to direct a parent).

Yes, my DS did both types of pointing, from 13 months. Once he was verbal he would say things like "look mummy a bus etc" as well as pointing.

The jury is still out on whether he has ASD. You only have to look at the SN boards to see how complicated it is, and a lot of children aren't suspected until older. There was no inkling of my DS having anything amiss really until he started pre school.

I don’t have any experience in child development except for my own kids but please don’t google child development traits. Everything screams Autism. Please do get your child assessed by a qualified person if you are worried. Sending best wishes.

@sleepingdogssnore I mean that you can predict, with high confidence, the probability of a future diagnosis based on observed behavior between 18M-24M. By high confidence I mean about 80% of all cases, but that still means that 2 or of every 10 cases will be incorrect or you will not be able to tell by 24M (which is still too high in my opinion).

Hey@Frootytooty567 it's been 4 years you posted this thread. I have same concerns about my 2 year old toddler. I want to know how's your ds now?

Hi do you have any updates please ?