Complicated 5yo behaviour and school

[JRJRJR]

Hi

Younger DD (5) is happy, kind, funny, conscientious and considered to be doing extremely well at school. She is also determined and can be stubborn - manifested throughout this summer as refusing to state "please", "thank you", "sorry". She'll smile and give you a cuddle, but she's decided she won't use these words and she's sticking to it.

We have been torn between imposing sanctions (withhold ice-creams, treats, outings etc) to reinforce what we're already doing (role-modelling and explaining why etc.); vs. shrugging shoulders and assuming she'll grow out of it.

Matters came to a head this week at school. She stuck her tongue out at a teacher and was immediately on "amber light"; she then wouldn't / couldn't say sorry. School went ballistic and immediately (no exaggeration) threatened suspension which I consider to be absurd. A quick detention / missed breaktime would seem proportionate for the offence, certainly on first occurrence. They also took her off for repeated duress in isolation, trying to force an apology. Head teacher gave me BS about how this was in school Policy, which I checked and (as you'd expect) cites suspension for e.g., bullying, violence, porn. I have written to him to say his reaction was disproportionate and heavy-handed.

Her form teacher reckoned she was inwardly remorseful but struggled to say so. She has set herself some stupid rule that gives herself a sense of control. Anyway, once home she (voluntarily) wrote the teacher a very nice letter which has been accepted, so the matter is "closed".

So two questions please for the panel:

• would you formally complain to the school about their heavy-handed reaction?
• would you take measures to help DD towards expected behaviour, or leave her to work it out without pressure?

Thanks!

School went ballistic and immediately (no exaggeration) threatened suspension

For sticking her tongue out and not saying sorry??

I'd be thinking of removing her OP. That reaction sounds extremely worrying.

Why on earth would they SUSPEND a 5 year old for that!?

To answer your question, I would indeed complain. I'd want an appointment with the teacher and the HT and an explanation of why they did what they did.

I would tackle DD's refusal to say please and sorry. I don't think it appropriate to allow a child who is intelligent and has no learning difficulties to refuse to say thank you or sorry. It's too soft...too mollycoddling.

Of course she must say please. I'd remain very firm on it...immediate removal of whatever she's meant to be saying thank you for "icecream" for example...and the sorry thing...I feel less full-on about this...because I think apologies only matter when they're heartfelt but to get on in general society, we must all say sorry sometimes.

I'd again insist on it. No apology then removal of something immediate such as TV time.

Hiya.
I'm not normally one to complain but I would in this situation. Yes her behaviour wasn't acceptable and she needs to know that you don't stick your tongue out at teachers, but it sounds like it was dealt with very over the top. She has acknowledged she shouldn't have done it and has written a letter, missing out on play time or their 'golden time' sounds like it would have sufficed along with you talking to her. Suspension seems totally disportionate for it and in particular for her age. She is only 5 and still learning and like my son who is also 5, keen to push the boundaries! I'm not sure what you can do to encourage her to use please, thankyou and sorry again however if my son ever forgets or is being lazy with his manners then I will say 'start that conversation again please with manners' or will gently remind him to say thankyou. She may have picked up from someone else at school, hopefully she will get bored of it soon.

Thanks both of you. Head T has responded to my letter in the most "I'm fobbing you off" way so I will indeed be seeking further explanation.

Believe it or not we don't really have TV time...and to the extent, very rarely, we have a movie it's jolly hard to allow DS1 to watch it but not DS2.

I fully agree with not accepting this behaviour. Problem is for six weeks straight she has dipped out on puddings, pocket money, ice cream and treats. To the extent it's made a difference, my instinct is she is more defiant than ever, like "I'm winning". Grrr.

And trust me there's no shortage of cuddles and affection from our side, and positive attention when she reads nicely and is helpful etc. It really is just these handful of words that people expect.

I'd honestly be seeking a counsellor for her. Her behaviour is very unusual.

You really need to address her behaviour, it isn't "normal".

So I agree her behaviour is not OK and needs addressing. I think we have tried everything reasonable*, suggestions welcome. She has dipped out on pocket money, puddings, outings entirely for six weeks.

Should we keep her back from birthday parties? Should we cancel her own birthday party? My instinct is those steps are excessive. As I said her behaviour is fundamentally excellent; she is much quicker than dd1 to tidy up, help in the garden, share toys and sweets etc. It's the words that go with it.

*I am not going to withhold food and water nor am I going to refuse to read to her.

I don't think keeping her away from parties is the answer. As I said, her behaviour is far from the norm..at her age, most children would simply tire of such behaviour. They might manage to keep it up for a couple of hours or a day at most.

To continually refuse to say thank you or sorry for this long is sort of...strange. Especially if she's not an anxious child or suffering from something like selective mutism.

You say she's perfectly well balanced in every other way...and that's what makes it unusual.

I'd be seeing a counsellor.

Have you asked her why she refuses to say please and thank you and such? Can you explain to her why its nice to have manners? That it makes people happy and encourages them to be kind to others.
Can you tell her that saying please and thank you are like smiles, sorry is like a hug... Would she like a world without hugs and smiles.

I do think that the school was heavy handed, were they perhaps trying to scare her straight, to some extent?

It is odd she has taken this stance... Seems entitled and as if she believes her feelings and opinions are above others and it doesn't seem to gel with your description of her being conscientious and kind.