Almost 4 year old still has tantrums - normal?

[User24689]

Hi all. I have posted about my DD before. She has always been a bit of a 'quirky' character and has displayed what I think are fairly unusual behaviours since babyhood. At 2 she had many signs of Asperger's syndrome but as she has gotten older a lot of these behaviours have stopped and she has become much more able to socialise with other children. Her preschool teacher has no concerns about her whatsoever and says she presents as a completely typical 3yo. She will be 4 in a month's time and is due to start school in September.

I do have one area I'm still really struggling with though and that is her tantrums. They are intense and sometimes violent and we have at least one a day. She has never ever shown this behaviour at preschool and most of my friends have never seen it.

An example from today: we were at the park and she wanted to go on the swing her brother was on. There were two but she wanted that specific one. I calmly explained she would have to either wait for it, or go on the other one. She started hanging off his swing and wailing. I told her to let go. She wouldn't let go. I told her that if she could not listen to me or let her brother play on the swing, I would take her home. She let go but was then just wandering about wailing and crying, stamping her feet, laying down on the tarmac etc etc. I got really fed up with this so after one more warning I just took them home. As I'm strapping toddler into the buggy she is screaming, pulling at my clothes. She was pulling at the buggy so I couldn't push it. It was so embarrassing.

It took us almost half an hour to do the five minute walk home. We spent 15 minutes outside one house because I couldn't get her to move at all (tried walking off but she literally clung to both my legs so I would have had to physically kick her from me, while pushing buggy!!)

Once home she continued, lying on floor and kicking. It isn't unusual for her to go in and out of a tantrum for up to 2 hours. Today was about an hour. They are usually about innocuous things like the swing. The other day it was because she only wanted one pair of socks and they were in the wash.

I don't know what to do. I'm worried DS is going to learn this behaviour from her. It's exhausting and is completely taking the joy out of life. Is this normal 4yo behaviour or do you think I should see GP at this point?

Also, how would you as parents advise me to deal with this behaviour? I feel like I'm failing her at the moment.

Thanks

Just adding a hopeful bump?

Worth a look at Dr Laura Markhams website. We've found it helpful. However I did come on here to post about my 3 1/2 Yr old as I'm struggling with his behaviour. Preschool see nothing but he had violent outbursts at his nursery, at home and now with a friend (trained in childcare) who's got him in the interim (I had to pull him out of nursery as they were terrible).
Even though preschool haven't seen anything their SENCo had been great. They've said they can refer him to the inclusion officer if needs be.
I'd also suggest contacting your HV team, they have 'nursery nurses' that deal with behaviour and will come see you.
Good luck.

Thanks jekyllandhydesmother! (Great username btw, I feel like this is me!) I did think about contacting HV but wasnt sure if that would be something they would deal with? I will give HV a call. I am quite worried about her starting school in September.

You may have this book already, but The Explosive Child by Ross Greene has lots of good strategies to help with this kind of behaviour. You mentioned as well that you had concerns about ASC when your DD was younger. It might be a good idea to look into this further. ASC can present very differently in girls, as they are often more socially motivated. What can happen is that they learn to mask their difficulties/cope at school and then meltdown to release the build up of anxiety and stress when they are at home. This may be the pattern that you are seeing.

Have a look at this checklist from Tania Marshall and see if it seems to fit your DD taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/first-signs-of-asperger-syndrome-in-young-girls-pre-school/. If you do have concerns the next step would be to make an appointment with your GP and ask for a referral to the Community Paediatrician for assessment.

Thanks magicroundabouts I'll look up that book. I feel like I'm not dealing with her very well at the moment. It really is exhausting and my 1.5 year old sleeps terribly so I'm long term sleep deprived and they aren't getting the best of me. I love her so much but her tantrums and inability to accept being told no are infuriating. I dread saying no to her. But I have to, of course, multiple times a day.

I feel quite emotional after reading that checklist as it could have been written for her. I think I will need to sit down with DH and think about how we move forward and help her. He is so preoccupied with work and everything else going on in our lives that sometimes I think he says she is fine and normal just because that would be easier. I have raised concerns with him before but he insists he was this way as a child and there's nothing wrong with him. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he could also be diagnosed with Asperger's and I wonder if he is reluctant to open a can of worms by looking into it too deeply. Very complex situation. Thanks for all your advice x

One more question sorry - is it appropriate to make an appt with GP or HV without her being there? I am reluctant to discuss all this in front of her as I don't want her to think that any of this means that there is something "wrong" with her.

Haha my username really does explain him, hes the sweetest kid sometimes but then he flips!!
So when I spoke to the HV team they asked the nursery nurse to call me (it's not the best term as they deal with behaviour and sleep issues 🤷‍♀️). She came out and spoke to me whilst he was at preschool.
I'm actually considering calling them again as I'm sure his reactions aren't normal.

Yes, definitely she doesn't need to be there for the GP/HV appointment. If possible I try and avoid appointments with DS present for exactly the same reasons.

I don't think it is unusual for a parent to realise they might be on the spectrum when concerns are raised about the possibility in their child. It was certainly the case with me! Looking back it was quite obvious DS was autistic, but I really didn't see it at all. It was only going through the process of assessment that I realised that I am more than likely on the spectrum myself. It can be hard, as we have been conditioned to view disability through the medical model looking for what is 'wrong' and how it can be fixed rather than the social model which focuses on changing the environment and meeting needs.

I found reading blogs from autistic advocates really helpful. I particularly like Chris Bonnello at Autistic Not Weird, Agony Autie and Not Raingirl on facebook and I have heard good things about Purple Ella on youtube. Also, head over to the SN Boards here. There is lots of great advice and support x

Thank you so much for this advice. I'll call the HV first I think next week and see if someone can come and see me while there are still a couple of weeks of preschool left. I don't have anyone else who can watch her really.

She has had yet another unbelievable tantrum this evening about getting in the bath. This is what I am dealing with atm, she will fight me on things that absolutely have to be done such as brushing teeth, bath and the main ones leaving people's houses or leaving the park. I usually leave lovely playdates struggling with both kids with DD kicking and screaming clinging to me and choking on her own cries. People always tell me not to worry haha 3 year Olds what are they like etc but I can tell they are shocked at the intensity.

Tonight she had to have a bath as she has been in the park paddling pool, got covered in ice cream and has sunscreen gathering in all her creases! I asked her nicely and firmly several times, got a calm flat no each time. It has been a long day. I got cross, she escalated into full screaming tantrum and I am ashamed to say I ended up picking her up and putting her in in her socks and knickers. I know that isn't ideal and I'm not proud of it, now she's in bed. But what else am I supposed to do when she flat refuses? I haven't got all night to negotiate with her when she won't give me anything other than no to everything I ask. I have a toddler to get ready for bed at the same time, he's usually crying while she tantrums because it scares him. It also makes our dog howl so it is truly chaotic. I'm just sitting here crying as it's all so overwhelming now they're asleep. The magnitude of how difficult raising her is going to be and also how much I love her and how I'll equipped I feel to look after her. Marriage is basically in tatters and none of this is helping. Don't even know why I'm unloading here, sorry. I just wish I had a "normal" child and I feel truly awful for saying such a horrible thing.

Maybe it's more to do with jealousy of her brother? Sibling rivalry is very intense in young children so maybe it's worth looking at what provokes her outbursts.

Please don’t feel awful, it is completely normal to feel that way. When you first suspect that your child may have additional needs, it is scary. This isn’t something that you want and everything that you thought would happen is suddenly in question. It is unsettling and naturally you want things to go back to normal.

Intense meltdowns/tantrums are hard to deal with when you’ve had enough sleep let alone when you’re sleep deprived and looking after a younger child too. Be kind to yourself. You are doing a great job

One thing you can try to make transitions easier (it sounds like DD is struggling with this?) is to give a 5 minute warning. Get down to her level “In 5 minutes, it is time to leave play date/ park etc” (you can put an alarm on your phone as well to give a cue). This helps with processing the request. You can use a 5 minute then a 3 minute warning or longer if needed. It is a little bit of trial and error to find what works.

Another technique is First and Then. So as an example you can say “first bath, then books”. Give her time to process the request and then repeat. If she doesn’t move towards the bathroom then you can gently lead her there. If she does get upset, you can keep repeating the phrase as a mantra (I find this can help, as it keeps me calm too). If she is really resistant then you can take a step back, give her 10 minutes says and then try again.

Validating feelings works well with my DS as well. “You don’t want to leave. You are having fun. It is time to go home now. We will come back” etc. The best book on this is How to Talk so Little Kids will Listen by Joanna Faber and Julie King.