4 year old you can't hold a conversation - starting to worry

[bozzy]

DS will be 4 in August - he is bright - has known his numbers for a long time, knows his colours, alphabet etc. He loves his songs and sings all the time (almost to replace conversations). He knows all his animals etc and remembers most objects etc. The problem is that he can't seem to hold a conversation with anyone (people talk to him and he just ignores them). He has started to have lots of tantrums (I think from frustration)and makes up swear words (first was dumbdangs!) sometimes watermelon etc - very random. He also does a lot of breathing like he is running out of breathe and we wonder if this is stress related. So worried - we have requested that he be held back a year from school as he really wouldn't cope. He doesn't seem to know how to relate to things (ie he wouldn't understand about going to school etc). Anyone know of someone to see in London who may be able to assess him??

Surely your GP can refer you?

Is he at nursery/pre school? What do the staff say? You could get a referral to an educational psychologist through his nursery surely?

We live in Gibraltar so it is quite difficult... we have been to a behavioural psychologist who believes that it would be a speech problem so i am waiting to see a speech therapist. We are happy to come to london to see someone if there were any recommendations - the nursery manager and teachers don't believe he is ready for school and are backing our request to have him deferred a year. I think he would really struggle as sometimes he just goes off on a random subject and children look at him a bit oddly. I think he just doesn't know how to speak to his peers - he loves their company, and all who knew him in London (before they all started talking) considered him to be their best friend. I feel sad that he can't make friends (he is still very close to those in London and when we visit them, they get on really well because they have a special bond). He is starting to ask for thinks and make sentences but it is very late. I'm sure he will be ready for school next year but think it will destroy him if he goes in Sept.

It could be something as simple as a maturity thing. I think deferring him sounds like the right idea. Let him have fun for another year before putting him into something structured and formal.

My ds didn't start having tantrums until he was 3.5, having been very calm and chilled before. He's growing out of them now at 4.5. Socially too he's taken a bit of time to get used to how things work in some situations, but his nursery teachers etc have been great at encouraging him to take part and explaining a few things gently.

It could just be that your ds needs a bit of extra help and encouragement to do things that some other children might just do naturally.

But he's still only 3 and a lot of the things you describe sound like he's playing around with sounds and words - he might just like the feel and sound of language.

6 months ago I wouldn't have said my ds was ready for school. But 6 months is a lot of time in a 4 y o's life and I think he'll do ok now.

Keep posting

Thanks Bobsmum- that's encouraging to hear! DS has always been chilled out, kind and good natured so it is a bit of a shock when he now starts testing us!! Have been so frustrated with him sometimes - desperate to give him a smack... but wouldn't as I don't believe in it (have shouted at him which is almost as bad.. trying very hard to control my temper with him). He is always better when DD is having her nap so I think the tantrums are related to being frustrated with her (she has a strong persality and likes a lot of attention - we are very aware of this..) He has also in the past 6 months started his drawing of breathe loudly (it makes me very short of breathe listening to it). The more we tried to encourage him to stop, the worse it has become so we are now trying to ignore it....doctor thinks it may be related to seeing dvds, programs that can cause 3 year olds stress...can't breathe at the moment as he is doing his "short of breathe" routine... it stops when he goes to sleep!

The breathing thing sounds like a habit - possibly stress related like you say.

Until recently ds would gnaw on his nails until they looked really ragged and bitten right down. He did it when he had been told off about something. We laid off on the shouting for telling off and used a quiet spot more often if needed, and sure enough, when we're chilled out, he's calmer too.

Made me feel a but sheepish when I realised it was that simple. That's not to say the shouting hasn't stopped completely..yet.

Yes Bobsmum, I think you are right.. both DH and I are trying really hard to spend more quality time with DS - he is improving by the day (apart from his tantrums over silly things) - and his breathing! He is so sensitive so I think it makes sense that his behaviour is related to ours!

I am a Speech and Language Therapist (not currently practising) and from your post I would say referral to an SLT sounds like a good idea. He/she will ask you lots of questions like whether your ds has difficulties communicationg at home or just with others. Some childrens' "speech" difficulties lie not with producing the words as such but with understanding how language works and the more subtle aspects of conversations. There are great things SLT's can do, with you, to help.

Good Luck.

KTNoo, many thanks for your posting. It is reassuring to hear this - sometimes it is quite difficult to understand what a speech therapist will do... DS has absolutely perfect speech when he sings or talks and I do feel that it is something that a good SLT could help us with. Many thanks!

My 4 year old was 4 at the end of May.

A lot of what you describe sounds familiar

• DS2 plays in his own little world, with his trucks, sings songs
• he doesn't answer most questions directly (though does on a good day)
• he has stupid temper tantrums for no reason
• somedays I feel like i am walking on eggshells trying to predict and defuse his tantrums
• he is a bit hyperactive, sees wall must climb it
• at playgroup he is very quiet, plays on his own though does follow the big boys around. I don't think they heard him speak for 4 months

But we are at an advantage in that he has a big brother who he does talk to/ fight with etc.. Also he knows the school as he has been playing in the playground for two years waiting for his brother.

What helped for us has been having children from playgroup over for a one to one playdate. I just read through the list of names on the list and if he showed any interest invited them over. It has really helped his confidence.

He also went through a stage of stuttering, we ignored it and it disapeared. Suggest you do the same with the breathing things, sounds like a stress related habit.

So know he is not ready for school, but I will find a quiet gentle soul like DS2 and keep on inviting him so he knows that there is always someone on his side

Hope you can get to see someone soon. If you have to wait a long time (it depends hugely on where you live) there are also private therapists if you can afford it. Glad the post was helpful. My ds (just turned 4) has some subtle language difficulties (we think dyslexia-related but not sure as he's still little) and it is in a strange way reassuring to remember this when he's not doing anything I'm asking! He can't cope with long instructions - I have to first make sure he's giving me eye contact then ask him to do one clear thing. He talks all the time so his (albeit minor) understanding problems are rather masked by his good speech. Does this sound at all familiar? Does your ds chat okay with you?

Forgot to say, the Royal College of SLT's can give you a list of private therapists - their website is www.rcslt.org

Accredited salts working privately from Royal College of Speech and Lang. Therapists website

Just seconding what KT says as i am a salt too.

Check out above link.

Go with moondog's link not mine! Sorry, I'm slightly out of touch - just emerging from baby number 3!

Hi Bozzy.

I can tell you about the Spanish system if you have any need for that information. My 3.8-year-old is presently going through assessments for his language delay and other communication/social issues.

Are you staying in Gibraltar for some time? I thought of taking my son back to the UK for an evaluation but because we are resident here, and don't see that changing, was told it'd be better to use the system we are within.

Hope you're getting the support you need - it is all very hard and worrying.

Thanks for your postings. Kas33, your DS sounds very similar (although he isn't hyperactive). He becomes a proper little boy when he is around his friends from London (we live in Gibraltar at the moment and have been here a year). We have struggled to find anyone compatible, mainly girls at his nursery (which is fine) but they aren't very interested really since he won't talk to them. It is hard to explain, but some of the children live in spain so we don't see them much - I do believe a playmate will make a big difference but we have been living a life b/w spain and gibraltar which hasn't helped. In london, from birth until 3, he had nursery or playgroup every morning and playmates in the afternoon so he was very close to his friends. Everyone considered him their best friends. He is always a lot happier after a visit to see his friends (been back 3 times now) - he seems a little lost since we've been here (it has been quite stressful for him I think) . My priority is to get a good speech therapist (hopefully there is one is gibraltar) - we are happy to travel to London for an assessment if we could find someone with a good reputation..

It just all sounds a little stressful for all of you at the moment.

There is definitely nothing wrong with my son and I expect yours either. He is just dealing things in his own way, best way is not to stress about his language. He just isn't ready for conversation !

Maybe get lots of story tapes/song tapes for the car, lots of books where he can join in.
I also find that humour defuses a lot of situations and makes him feel that we are "connected". Also I put his car seat in the front seat so we can chat while driving, he speaks so softly that often I couldn't hear him otherwise.

KTNoo, DS doesn't really "chat" as such - he makes short statements or asks questions which we have tought him (ie can I have..,please?" I can tell he would like to though so I know it is only a matter of time...but would like to keep him out of school until he masters it as I know he will be a different child once he has grasped it - he used to be so sociable and has a great sense of humour.

Newmonthnewname.. sorry missed your posting before. We are considering sending DS to a spanish school next year if he doens't go to school in Gib.. trying to make sure that whatever decision we make will be consistent for a few years and not chopping and changing. I would be interested in finding out more, particularly as your son is exactly the same age.

Kaz33, we have lots of CDs in the car with songs - he loves singing and can't wait to get up in nursery and sing to the whole class! So I think there is a clear message there that it is more his communication skills that he is having difficulty in - must be frustrating for him I'm sure and he obviously wants to show off to everyone his singing - he sings every word very clearly and sings throughout the day - I think to replace conversations...his favourite "you are my sunshine.."
Thomas is his favourite DVD and subject - he loves trains so much and spends all day with them if he could... he can name every single one!

Good Luck with the SLT. I'm sure you know your child better than anyone else and a good SLT should listen to all your views about your ds. If you feel that social communication is what he really struggles with it might just be a case of limiting the "stressful" communication situations until you feel he's more able to cope with them. Is there an English-speaking preschool he could attend? I'm assuming he speaks only English - if he already speaks Spanish then disregard this. I really hope you get some helpful advice soon.

HI KTNoo, yes the preschool he is at is english speaking so no problems there. I would imagine that introducing spanish may cause even more confusion although some would disagree

I would agree with you that it's probably not the best time to introduce Spanish considering he finds communication difficult anyway. Bilingualism is a great opportunity given the right circumstances however. I would go with your instincts. My oldest 2 are exposed to 2 languages - one has lapped up the opportunity and manages equally well in both, the younger completely refuses to use the second language, so you never know how they'll react to it.

Am I right to feel worried? Just had a letter from the nursery (I asked them to provide one to back up a request to have my 4yr old (4 in August) to be deferred a year from school....
Observations:

1. Does not pay attention (listen) to instructions 50% or more of the time
2. Has difficulty following verbal directions, it is often necessary to repeat instructions
3. Cannot attend to auditory stimuli for more than a few seconds
4. Has a short attention span
5. Daydreams, attention drifts
6. Easily distracted by background noise
7. Has 'startle' response to sudden sound and movement
8. Constant humming or audible self talk
9. Needs frequent 'quiet' time to regain mental energy and composure 10.Has a language problem (morphology, syntax, vocabulary, phonology) 11.Has an articulation (phonology) problem

Is this "normal" behaviour for a child late in speaking or is it something more serious? He used to have a very good attention span - always finishing jigsaw puzzles, playing with his trains for hours...

DS has been attending the playgroup since last October and this is the first time these issues have been formally addressed - am I right to feel annoyed at this?

It does seem quite a long time to wait before addressing the issues you mention. I know they give all children time to settle into nursery but still. Did you initiate things or did they? Hopefully they've been talking to you about the concerns as a letter out of the blue is very insensitive. Do you agree with the concerns? Maybe you could spend a morning at the nursery to compare how he copes at home versus nursery - concentration in groups versus individually can be very different. Does he concentrate well on tasks you want him to do as well as activities of his own choosing? He's very young for his school year anyway so it's going to do no harm to defer him. I hope you manage to speak to the nursery staff as this must all be so worrying from you.

Thanks KTNoo, I did ask for the letter to back up my request for his referral (I think I will definately get it now!). The thing is, he went to a very good montesorri nursery in London until we moved last February, and none of these seemed to apply. So I'm not sure if this has happened because of the move, because of the nursery or because of his age... I have been working part-time at the nursery setting up the accounts so I know the manager very well. My son's teacher did say that he wouldn't sit for stories initially so they would let him wander around instead (getting a reputation as the naughty boy by the other children - which he is so not!). A Health Inspector once marvelled on his great attention span so I am at a loss really. I think a lot must be related to the fact that he can't keep up with the others so perhaps loses interest. Because he can sing songs, he can't wait to get up to show the others.