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15-weeks-old and furious! Help, MNs- is this normal?

41 replies

Tippis · 07/07/2007 15:28

My 1st ever thread so hope am doing it right...(when I previewed it there were weird ' figures coming up wherever I had typed an apostrophe- sorry, not sure why )anyway my 15 week old DS has had quite a tough time from the get-go- difficult birth, very colicy, dreadful baby eczema etc etc, so we kind of hit the ground screaming and carried on that way for about 11 weeks. But in between yells he had long smiley chuckling times so we figured all was par for the course.
However he has just started having what sound like furious temper tantrums in the last 3 weeks- making an awful growling, straining sort of noise, as if gritting his teeth in a rage and going GRRRRAAAGGGHHHHH! For long periods at a time too, going bright red (but not constipated). Sounds like real fury and frustration. Looking back, it seemed to start around the time I was coming down with mastitis, but I don't know if there is a connection- had to stop breastfeeding for a while (antibiotics upset his tum). However the rages are still going even though we have got breatfeeding going quite well again after a few days of struggle. I don't think it's hunger, as that tends to be a different noise. He has pretty much stopped doing it during feeds now my milk is virtually back to normal,but will go into one at seemingly random times- when playing etc. He does have happy times too and still smiles and coos sometimes.
Can MNs advise/ re-assure me? I don't have any family around to ask or other babies to compare to. If it's just a normal developmental thing- experimenting with his voice, getting frustrated as he develops new skills and wants to do more- that's fine. But I've never heard or read of such little babies behaving like this- I thought it was more 2-year-olds that had tantrums, if that's what they are. In my darkest moments I'm afraid I might have a stressed-out, disturbed tot on my hands, and get quite upset at the 'loss' of my sweet little baby...OK he was colicy, but even that was a comparatively cute kind of 'help me' noise compared to this- distressing, sure, but for different reasons. I don't THINK the home environment is too stressful- he gets non-stop cuddles, kisses and love from me and DH and I feed him whenever he wants.
Any comparable experiences out there, and how did they turn out?

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MaeBee · 12/07/2007 08:55

tippis - always reassuring to know you aren't harbouring some demon child!! your baby's a normal one, don't worry!!

the fighting sleep thing: this rings some bells too. my boy was rubbish at sleeping, or, rather, i hadn't taught him to sleep, and i think a lot of his rage was overtiredness. he took lots in, is v nosy too. and he used to be able to fall asleep in public but about 3 months he couldn't. he would only nap for 20 mins and then wake furious again. i started to prioritise putting him down for naps. at first i had to nap with him two or three times a day, but then we did the babywhisperer pickup putdown method and now he independently sleeps. teaching independent sleep has been so transformative, partly cos it gives me 2 or 3 hrs off a day, and partly cos a tired baby is a furious baby! he is so much happier when he gets enough rest. is yours getting enough sleep? really look into this!

another tip we use for breaking our boy's tantrums is take him into a different room. so if he's kicking off in the kitchen we just take him into the hall, and that change of environment works like your bell trick. if there's no calming him i open the back door and show him the garden and he usually stops mid yell!

JazzyGsMummy · 12/07/2007 18:12

Just an idea but try to see if there are any baby massage classes in your area. I did it for my dd (she wasn't frustrated like your son but she did have colic), it seemed to calm her down before bath time every night. I don't really know if it would work but I suppeose for you at the moment anything would be worth a try. the baby signing sounds like a good option as well.
Good luck I hope his "tantrums" don't last for too much longer
ps welcome to mumsnet

Chocolatepenny · 12/07/2007 18:41

KNow how you feel Tippis, I have a 15 week old boy too and he has started crying all the time when he can't get a toy or when I put him down or in his pram,
I'm sat here with a large glass of wine having just got him down after a terrible day or bursting into tears after straining to do something etc,...and no Sleep...its knackering I am pooped and worried what tomorrow will bring. REally hope 6 months bring a change

Tippis · 12/07/2007 19:57

Chocolatepenny I do feel for you and I'll be joining you in a glass of wine later! I know this is really childish but it's my birthday tomorrow and I'm feeling extremely sorry for myself, thinking, what's the point even trying to celebrate it, boo hoo poor me! Today was quite grim for us too. He just WOULD NOT sleep though obviously tired, was up 6am-7pm, and needs to be entertained most of that, so I'm dancing about and trying to sound cheery, because you're not suppsoed to upset them with angry faces etc etc, and really I'm dying to scream FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL YOU PUT A FLAMING SOCK IN IT!

Maebee, I've heard of Baby Whisperer, 'tis a book is it not? I've tried a few books- some 'pro-routine' (he laughed in the face of the routines) one called The Happiest Baby on the Block (he isn't!)and so on... What are main tenets of The B.W.? I think you're right that he needs more daytime naps. Trouble is as mentioned, he flips his lid if taken near the crib most days. Some days, maybe once or twice a week, he'll have a good nap, and I think, wey hey I've cracked this mothering lark! Then the next day/s he won't go down for love nor money. I always try, but he's only fallen asleep from being put down awake about 5 times in his life; usually at best he'll lie there and burble happily, but cry and get franctic if I don't respond- at worst, he screams lungs out the minute head touches mattress! He'll sometimes sleep if I slide him in without a jolt after he's dozed off breastfeeding- but then if he half-wakes and realises where he is, he goes off like a flippin' fire alarm.

What I do is pick him up after a couple of minutes if he's obviously frantic (though I might leave him for 5 if he's just 'fussing' and a couple of times I've had to leave him for a good few mins as I was just too ill/ upset myself to go to him immediately,which I feel a bit guilty about). Anyway he usually stops crying when I pick him up, so I cuddle him briefly and try to put him back down and creep out again, but after five or so tries I usually give up and let him get up again.Sometims I spend up to an hour like this. I've tried: staying by him and pretending to sleep myself; coming in and out and rocking him or singing to him or holding his hand; none of it works. I've tried to put him down around the same times, withthe same toy, same music, no music, curtains closed, curtains open...you get the picture.
Help! Any ideas where I could be going wrong?

-I've tried to give him a bit of baby massage myself, having looked up how to, and he wasn't too keen. I love the idea of it and it would probably be much better to learn it properly in a group, but TBH I dread the thought of trying to do it in public with him yelling his wee head off! I know, I'm a coward.
Well time to cook dinner and get that wine open- cheers, everyone!

OP posts:
nellie75 · 12/07/2007 20:01

Hi sorry if i'm putting what someone else has but haven't read it all, anyway osteopathy on babies is great, its quite amazing what they can do and during birth babies get squashed, my osteopath had my ds sleeping in no time, or reflexology which is what my 19 week old dd has, she loves it and now sleeps from eight thirty to six thirty and smiles all the time shes awake, people comment on the fact that they never hear her cry

KTNoo · 12/07/2007 20:09

Might sound obvious but have you tried a dummy? This saved my life with dd3 who was very colicky and I couldn't always pick her up because of the 2 others. I analysed to death why all my babies cried so much but in the end you never get to the bottom of much of it and you have to get through the days (and nights!)

The NUK style dummies worked the best for us for not falling out of the mouth every 2 seconds, if you're interested. I presume this was because the shape resembles the nipple when breastfeeding. Avent were hopeless - just fell out.

Pennies · 12/07/2007 20:15

I haven't readall the thread but DD2 has been furious about being born 18months ago and has raged about that and anything else that is even the most remotely frustrating or annoying since she first saw daylight.

It's getting much better now though as she's walking well and - most importantly for her - being able to talk and make herself understood.

Your ds sounds just like her. Don't worry - when she's not raging she is the most affectionate and cute little thing, though I've got to say I'm dreading her toddler tantrums!!!!

MaeBee · 13/07/2007 09:35

tippis: happy birthday!
chocolatepenny and tippis: i really feel for you both. its so frustrating when everyone elses baby seems happy and content and you just can't work out whats wrong with yours! a large glass of wine every night saved my sanity. remember what worked for other peoples devil children won't necessarily work for yours, but its useful to really listen, and honestly evaluate what you havent tried. i found myself dismissing everyone with:ive tried everything! but actually, i was mostly doing the same patterns, because i was so tired and exhausted and angry!

tippis: i would advise reading the babywhisperer book, or looking at the website: think its www.babywhisperer.com and going to "sleep" on the discussion/q and a board. it worked for us, but, as i said, it doesn't for everyone. if your baby is awake from 6 to 7, he is probably utterly exhausted and stressed. i used to think my boy couldn't be tired cos otherwise he'd fall asleep, but actually he was getting overtired. you need to look for the signs on early waking: lots of babies get tired about 2 hrs after getting up. my 9 month old goes back for an hr nap at around 8.30. try and catch the first yawn! the more tired they get, the harder it is to get them to sleep. but dn't watch the clock, watch your babys signals. grumpiness, eyerubbing, yawning etc.
it took a while to get my baby to sleep without me. The babywhisperer calls it "accidental parenting" when you teach them the wrong thing, and then you have to amend it. this takes time and patience, but often less than you think!!
why is your baby so afraid of his cot? where does he sleep at night? is he ok going to bed at night? it could be his age, and as he grows more confident he could get better at sleeping without you. mine needed help to learn independent sleep. what i think you are doing wrong is mixing methods. im not an expert though! but sneaking out is meant to be a bad idea long term cos then you are cheating them and they know it and it makes them furious. also if they fall asleep in your arms and then you put them down they get startled when they rouse a bit, and instead of going back to sleep scream for you.
pickup putdown is comforting them when they yell and after they calm put the baby back in the cot saying something like"sleep time now". when they cry again you pick them up and calm them, do the same thing again and again. the main trick is putting him down awake but sleepy. it can take hours the first few times. we started doing this at night before doing it for naps, cos he was much better at nighttime anyway. (although he used to wake every 2hrs! ) according to the babywhisperer, doing controlled crying can set everything back, cos then they are scared of their cot and the whole sleep thing.
what i tried to remember was this:
when he is tired and screaming, he is not angry at me, he is angry cos he wants to sleep. i am teaching him to sleep.
when i picked him up i would think "i am your still waters", which calmed me and him! picking them up teaches them you will be there when they need you. but also you have confidence they can get themselves to sleep without you rocking or breastfeeding them. i give mine a bf first, before putting him down for a nap, and now, he sometimes falls asleep during it, but he's not dependent on it, and that is all the difference in the world.
your baby should be getting about 15hrs sleep all in all, i think, at this age. (its variable baby by baby of course! mine never has the required 3 - 4 hrs in the day, more like 2 - 2.5) i think around this age they usually need to go for a nap every 2 hrs or so.
it takes a while to learn to read your child. i was misreading mine for ages. i thought he wanted stimulation when he wanted sleep. he still needs a shed load of attention and is fairly full-on, but we communicate much better. i hated him to be honest, and i thought i was a terrible failure as a mum. now i think im great! .
you said you are nice to him through a veil of anger. i did this too. and it doesn't work. they know! and it really upsets them more. i found it was better to hold him and say "we are having a really tough time right now, aren't we?" or stuff like that, being honest that things weren't good between us, but treating it like a team effort, not him against me (which is how it felt in the early days!) because you are in this relationship with him for life now, and it is a temporary thing you are going through, but you are having relationship problems right now, and its upsetting for both of you. be honest with your lo, tell him its difficult and you are struggling.
i now do more like 50 - 50 childcare with my partner, this too is much better for me. do you have someone to share the burden with?
if you are going to start doing different stuff, like pickup putdown i recommend picking a day to start and sticking with it. i had my dp on board, even though he was extremely cynical at first, and we expected to be in for our worst night ever. (turned out to be the first better one in ages!!) we knew we were going to do it for 2 weeks or so, because if it failed we thought we would have to go the controlled crying route and i really didn't want to.
i hated the idea of any type of routine, i thought it was all gina fordesque, and totally resisted it. the babywhisperer stuff suggests not following a routine by the clock but having a rythym to your day, so your baby knows what to expect next. they generally hate surprises! and actually, this too has been really settling for my lo. she suggests E.A.S.Y :eat, activity, sleep, you time. i do something close to that.
you said your baby sometimes freaks out going through the bedroom door. do you use the bedroom for playing in at all? this sounds to me the first thing to tackle, making the bedroom seem a welcoming and happy place.
oh, now when i put my baby down for a nap i sing him a going for a nap song, as does my dp when he puts him down, and he starts yawning as i sing it! its like a magic trick! highly stimulated babies often need extra shut off time before falling asleep. so i take him upstairs singing the song, we shut the curtains together, i sometimes read hiim a quiet story and i give him a bf all in a quiet dark room.
i hope some of this is helpful! its very long i know!

JazzyGsMummy · 13/07/2007 17:22

Happy birthday Tippis!Hope it's better than you imagined.
I'm sure that one day you'll look back and wonder how your pleasant, funny and happy son could have been like this. I'm sure there will turn out to be a perfectly reasonable explanation. he may just stop stressing one day and you'll never know what it was all about. either way it won't last forver
for now enjoy your birthday and don't worry about feeling sorry for yourself. not many new mums & dad's get time to themselves and quite rightly should find time. even if it is just to wallow in self pity, (at least it's all about you!) anyone who says otherwise and tells you to pull yourself together has never had a child or has forgotten what those 1st few months are like.
Hard work but worth it in the end.
x x

snechie · 14/07/2007 17:31

Hi Tippis, my 6 month old dd is a wee frustrated one too. I too get a bit upset when I see all my friends babies that are so content and will happily sit and play with their toys and happily amuse themselves in their pushchairs. Mine cries a lot but just like yours she is a real smiler too and can just be the cutest thing ever when she is in a good mood. I have spent a lot of time trying to analyse why she is like she is but have now learnt just to accept that its just the way she is and to enjoy the smiley times. I also worried that it was because I had a month of being very stressed during my pregnancy, I also worried that it was because I found the first three months really hard and was quite anxious and that she had picked up on that. But then I realise that I am just being daft and worrying too much!

My dd got two teeth at 4 months and was defintately worse when she was teething. The day before her second tooth came through she would not let me put her down all day. She learnt to sit up a few weeks ago and has been much more to content and play for short periods now she has a little bit of independence. She always hated lying down, she always wants to be up on her feet or up being walked round in my arms. However the last week she has started to get really frustrated again and I think its because she is about to start crawling and is getting frustrated cos she can't just yet.

With regards to the sleeping thing, my little one refused to go near her cot during the day, but I perservered and would let her cry for short periods, we spent a lot of time up and down and abandoning the cot and going for a walk insted. But then eventually at about 5 months she suddenly just got it and would go down with only a little bit of fussing and would sleep for and hour and a half at a time - result. I think it is fairly common though and most babies take a while to get used to their cots during the day. I would say just keep perservering because when they start having long naps, that little break is a god send, and keeps you sane when you are having a really difficult day!

Tippis · 14/07/2007 20:00

Thank you JazzyGsMum for the birthday wishes, and for the hope! Birthday was non-event in day as DS did his full Nessun Dorma but better in evening- went out for drink with friends for first time in over a year, got royally pissed on 2 glasses of red! Wonderful to slightly forget about being a Mum for a bit! Neither DP nor I have any family in the country you see so it?s just me or him looking after DS 24/7. Anyway I so hope you?re right about my little one and he turns out happy and well.
Snechie I read your kind post with relief too- maybe some babies just are this way and I'm not the worst Mum ever! Yes my DS just hates to be laid down, though interestingly is getting better about this when it's on his playmat or changing mat-anywhere not associated with sleep! I'm glad to see you say that the cot-phobia thing is common, I didn't know that and it'll be a little easier to deal with now I do. It's also made me look forward to things I was dreading, like crawling- I was thinking, how will I cope with that when I can't cope with a stationary baby! But now I'll try to look forward to him enjoying a new freedom.

Maebee I've been trying to work out what could be bugging him about crib/ bedroom but can't really see anything. Tried to get on Baby Whisperer site but couldn't register due to tech. problems. However what I do at the mo is pick him up after a few minutes if he seems really upset, hold him, quiet him and put him back- tried it literally 10 times in a row for about 2 hours yesterday and he just got worse each time, but absolutely fine and all smiles when allowed out with us again. Today he slept for 40 mins in Moses basket this morning and about 20 this afternoon. It?s not enough though and he looks really tired.Could he be just plain hungry and getting ready for weaning- he?s 16 weeks tomorrow? I breastfed him 3 times in 5 hours today and he fed for ages each time. Anyway M. I greatly appreciated your thoughtful and helpful post.

  • Nuk dummies- these sound great, but when I Googled them to see where I could buy, I ran into several posts indicating there was some kind of safety scare and recall in the US last year on one kind of Nuk dummy- rather vague on details but alleged suffocation risk or something? Presumably they?re corrected the problem but I couldn?t find anything on their website. Dammit, was excited about getting them as we?ve also found the Avent ones fall out every 2 secs and wake him up! But now don?t know if I should risk it- does anyone know anything about this? Thank you all, you're a real lifeline at the mo
OP posts:
TheArmadillo · 14/07/2007 20:04

ds always hated his cot.

We put him into a mattress on the floor at 10 months. He was so much happier then.

Tbh if he has been colicy then weaning might not be best thing as it can indicate a sensitive stomach (ds reacted to baby rice at 6 months).

Sorry htat you're having a hard time, but it will get better. It sounds exactly like my ds and now at 2.8 most people describe him as the happiest child they have ever met.

MaeBee · 15/07/2007 09:20

tippis - hi there, it sounds to me as if you are doing pickup putdown right. did i say that my lo won't sleep on his back? we ended up propping him on his side,and he slept better, but now however weput him down he rolls onto his belly. BUT unfortunately, the advice from everyone is don't do this until he can roll over completely.
another thing that helped was putting something under his mattress under his head, to lift his head, so he wasn't totally flat. we use folded blankets, but a pillow is fine too, but make sure you put it UNDER the mattress, not over.

try looking again on the babywhisperer site. we didn't do it on my boy til he was 6 mths, so maybe yours is too little. and have you tried co-sleeping otherwise? its not for everyone but it can help for some.

3 times in 5 hrs isnt so much feeding. my lo still goes on marathons where he wants to feed every hr or two, it could be a growth spurt? but i think hes too young for solids. 6 mths is the recommended.

but from your description, i would say hes definately not getting enough sleep. 40 and then 20 isn't enough. ive heard to get a good nap it needs to bemore than 45mins. how long does he sleep at night? is he ok going down in his cot at night? have you tried napping in the day with him?

and as the others have said, it WILL get better. keep trying new things, but remember that babies change so very quickly, and what seems like a nightmare of eternal sleeplessness will pass very soon.

Tippis · 17/07/2007 20:40

Thanks Maebee and Armadillo...sorry for slow reply, it's been a shocking few days, so much so that I eventually took DS to docs convinced something had to be wrong. DS looking exhausted, obviously desperately wanting to sleep but something stopping him, yelling head off-awful to see..well apparently he has 'six month' colic..which I didn't know existed! Three month variety was bad enough- trust us to be in for the long haul...oh well at least it explains some of his behaviour and it's nothing more serious. My DP thinks I should be over the moon because it's not something worse, and of course I AM glad, was relieved and quite euphoric for about an hour but then the reality hit me: another two months of walking the floor for hours each day with a poor screaming critter in my arms, not being able to put him down, not being able to go anywhere because he'll just scream his head off, etc...And the worst thing, seeing someone you love so helpless and apparently in agony.
Just tell me there's no such thing as nine month colic or I'm leaving home! Alone!!!

OP posts:
MaeBee · 18/07/2007 08:57

tippis - as far as i remember there are some things to help with colic. is he bottlefed or breastfed? do you know the best positions to hold your particular screaming baby?

poor mite.

and poor you.

i would hold off on the solids til his belly settles.

Tippis · 19/07/2007 13:25

COLIC! That word will be written on my heart! Yes there are lots of recommended tips for it- various holds, swaddling etc, not eating certain foods- we tried lots of stuff when he first had it (from 1 to 11 weeks!!) Nothing much worked, though Infacol drops do to an extent, and constant motion. He likes to be held vertically and eschews the usual cradling hold you'd use on a baby- probably being more upright helps digestion?
This new colic is different- the old type was obviously digestion-related as the poor scrap would whimper and pull his legs up in waves of pain- bit like me in labour contractions actually- even in his sleep. He doesn't do that now, it's more constant crying and clinginess. But he does get some trapped wind so could still be digestion-related.

He's breastfed for 6/7 feeds, with one formula. He had it even when exclusively breastfed- so much for b'fed babies not getting colic!!
Oh wel I guess it will end one day. But I get so sad when I'm frantically pushing him in his pram and I see all these lovely happy babs sitting quietly on their Mums' laps outside cafes while the Mums have a nice chat with friends and can even eat with no screaming! Motherhood must be a totally different experience with one of THOSE babies. Still, trying to be positive one thing cheered me up today- I had my hair wrapped in a towel and when I came up to him, his little lip wobbled and he looked a bit afraid- realised it's so long since I attempted to deep-condition the old barnet he's probably not seen me in a towel before. So I whipped it off and he opened his eyes wide and beamed at me. So if nothig else, at least he is pleased to see me and knows who I am, and must feel safe with me to an extent. I'm going to hang on to that!

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