How can I deal with defiant 3yo?

[tracyk]

I reckon I have been too soft with ds for a while now. I think his behaviour is typical of his age - but I'm not sure how best to deal with it.
Getting him dressed/pyjamas on/coming to dinner table etc can take forever. 50% of time he's fine and 50% he either ignores me or says 'not now' and carries on watching TV/playing with toys.
I bought an alarm clock to try and get him to understand 'time' a bit more and it is working (sort of) ie at 6.50 - I'll show him the clock and show him at 7pm he needs to be in pjs or no story.
However last night he was a bit overtired and refused to egt in pj's or go to his room or brush his teeth. Running away from me when I tried to carry him there. Standing at the end of the hallway shouting NO, NO, NO!
I ended up saying that for every time he said NO to me then a toy went in the bin. I got 2 toys in the bin before he came and brushed his teeth. I had told him he could get them back out of the bin when his teeth were brushed.
Was this an appropriate punishment for the situation?
Any other tips for dealing with the same situation?

3 year olds are much harder to deal with than 2 year olds IME. BUT - it is so important to remember that he is still very young. In many cultures a 3 year old is considered to be a baby. We have such high expectations of our very small children in our society - causes a lot of unnecessary stress and anxiety IMO.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned overtiredness. I would suggest starting the whole bed time routine an hour earlier, and you may well find it all much easier.

A three year old really can't get to grips with the passage of time as it relates to a clock face. However, if you have a routine and stick to it, he will feel secure - they do like to know what is coming next. So, for example, you say:

"Now we are going to get you bathed and into your pjamas, then we will have supper."

Then, while you are having supper you say:

"After supper we are going to have a story, and then it will be time for bed."

You can start a sticker chart or pasta jar system of rewards at this age, and you can say that if he is good (and cooperative) he can have a star/sticker or whatever, and then so many equals a small treat. Three yearolds can't wait long for rewards though, so targets have to be achievable, and the reward close enough to the good behaviour to make the link in his mind IYSWIM.

Positive reinforcemnet work so much better than punishments and santions at this age.

HTH

Can he be a little more independent? I mean, you know what he needs to do, but can he decide how he does it? Like, getting dressed before or after breakfast, choosing his own clothes, would he like a drink of water before or after he brushes his teeth, etc. I am trying to do this with my dcs.

That's what I've been trying to do Tootricky - but its driving my dh nuts - he says I shouldn't give him choices all the time - sometimes he just has to do what we ask/tell him to do!
I normally have time to negotiate with him - well that usually involves me switching TV off and sitting with my arms folded, ignoring him till he does what I want! (prob not very adult of me) - but last night I could see that he would be happy to potter around for hours and never go to bed -so I wanted to force the issue and get it over and done with.
sticker charts worked for his toilet training - maybe I should dig them back out.

I got a good book recently from the library: How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk. It really is very good, and I don't normally like parenting books - they just send me to sleep. Perhaps your dh would read it too...
I know it's tricky - men seem more het up on discipline, my dp starts foaming at the mouth if dcs won't do things "because he said so".

I think you're doing pretty well tbh.

try a kitchen timer, and turn it into a bit of a game? "if you are in your pyjamas/get to the table/get dressed etc before the timer goes off, you get a sticker?"
Agree with positive reinforcement - probably the most effective technique, if the most difficult when YOU'RE tired and at the end of your tether. But they also have to know when you mean business, so I like your idea of putting toys in the bin then letting him haev them back when they do as they are told, so he learns responsibility for his own actions.
Another tip a colleague gave me was to give them 2 options - both of which gets the result you want (ie do you want to climb in the bath yourself, or should I lift you in). You're right to be addressing this now, he sounds completely normal, and actually better than normal if doing what told 50% of the time! Good luck!

I think there is a fine line with choices for some children. For example, I would always offer a choice of what story we were going to read, but not about whether we had the story before of after getting washed or whatever. I suppose it depends on the personality of the child.

x posts with lilolil. Agree that the suggested choice about getting in the bath is the best way to offer choices.

Totally sympathise, my ds is 3 and worse than terrible twos. I was too soft in the beginning and no reinforcement from father who works too much. I just let him run riot (took an observer to fill me in on this one! I didn't figure it out for myself).

I've made my own clock and put the characters of thomas tank engine around next to each number ie 1 o'clock is Thomas 3 is Percy and then I show him the clock and say its nearly Toby time (7) so its time to go and bath. It works quite well, stickers from Toys r us its a box set and clock from ASDA, took off the other hands so just the hour hand so he doesn't get confused. Just be firm with DS and a couple of days of reinforced routine and he will get the hang of it.

I give warnings and also as 3littlefrogs suggested start telling them what to expect in advance ie 5 mins before the end of their program on tv say 'its nearly finished time for supper' then when the writing at the end of the pg comes on get ds to turn off the telly himself.

Sorry very long post.. I also have the warnings 3 times then the discipline is enforced eg 1: nearly time to go to table and eat supper 2: time to sit and eat supper 3: SIT and eat. we've had lots of spitting when he's frustrated and throwing of food and running away from the table. Friday he was warned not to and then told if he didn't comply he was going straight to bed. He spat at me and wouldn't eat so I took him straight upstairs. Told him what he did wrong and put him in bed. He screamed, threw things, broke stuff and yelled for 1 hour but each time he came out his room I calmly put him back in his bed and remineded him he was being punished. He eventually calmed down and said sorry but still had to stay in bed. The next day this little angel awoke and said 'sorry mummy for spitting at you. I don't want to go to my bedroom again' and he was as cooperative as ever for the next two days because he realised mum means business. Good luck hope this helps!

I think a lot depends on the personality of the child -let's face it, you meet some compliant adults and some that really want to go and do their own thing. We shoudn't expect any less of children!
We found the 'terrible 2's' fine then he turned 3 and was was very much 'what's happened to our lovely little boy?!?!'
We found that talking to him and explaining what would happen, why we're doing such things really worked but there are certain times when they just have to do what you need them to. Our ds loves getting dressed 'by himself' (his favourite phrase!) but now seems to mess about whilst doing it. If the telly's on, I'll turn it off after a warning and no change. You don't always have to be negative -'I think that will help you concentrate better' is quite a reasonable thing to say but it isn't telling them off.

I agree with the poster who talked of routine. We love it in our house and he loves telling us what we've missed out if we forget.

Re the time thing. We bought ds a 'rabbit' clock from a charity shop (can get from blooming marvelous) instead of an alarm you press the button and the rabbit goes to sleep when the alarm goes off (can be silent) the rabbit wakes up. We explained what this was for and it did work, he didn't come downstairs until the rabbit had woken up. If he woke early he was allowed to play in his room. It doesn't really teach them the time but does intorduce the idea of a clock, looking at it and knowing there are certain things we do a certain times. (though it can teach the time if you want it too)

Sorry it's a bit long and I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions but this is the approach that seems to be working atm!!

I've heard about that book Tootricky - I think I'll get a hold of a copy.

I do give ds 2 choices - either - I'm happy with whichever he chooses - or I know he'll take the 2nd choice (which is the one I want him to take anyway) as sometimes he will swear black is white!

God its hard isn't it when they have a tantrum - when all you want to do is give them a good smack!

The only worry I have about putting toys in the bin - is I don't want to reinforce the 'throwaway' mentality - so I may say that I will give his toys to another little boy who needs toys.

I have tried the 'Mummy is so dispappointed with you' line and this is working atm. Toys being taken from him, sticker charts ('I won't have the sticker then...')don't, and have never, really worked with my ds. The naughty step worked for a bit but then he developed a 3 year old sense of sarcasm in that 'I'm sitting on here because I hit the dog, sorry dog, sorry mummy' said in a kevin the teenager kind of way!
We now send him to his room which again, atm, is working but I know that will wear off soon.
Also make sure you and you dh/p are singing from the same hymn sheet. We did find that ds would ask me a question, not get the answer he wanted and then go and ask daddy. We put pay to that! We always discuss his behaviour and talk about 'what we're going to do with this....!' Present a united front so to speak.

When I'm being huffy with him - I tell him - 'mummys not happy'. When he's done whats been asked of him and we are friends again - he always asks ' are you happy now mummy?'

We have a toy basket with his name where we put toys and they stay there for 1 week when he's being punished. Its on top of the fridge where he can't reach but can see them and it drives him nuts. Saves you having to fish them out the bin or buy new ones.

Try walking away - works almost every time for us. Don't get wound up, just feign couldn't care less - tell him to call when he's ready to do whatever it is and leave. You'd be amazed, honest. Usually takes less than a minute.

Much better tonight - only had to warn ds that toys may go in the bin - and he was in the bathroom looking for his toothbrush!

My DD (Also 3) can be very defiant, particularly if she can see a potential battle. So I tend to work out what she wants / what would motivate her and then work back to what I want to achieve. For example, today she was screeching the car, if I had said 'don't do that' she would have done it to spite me, even if I had threatened a punishment. But instead, I said very nicely that it was a shame that she was screeching so horrbly, because it gave mummy a headache and then mummy wouldn't be able to listen to her nice music and it would go off. Knowing that she loves listening to her music would be enough of an incentive to get her to behave, it worked. But if I had put it as a threat (don't screech or I'll turn your music off) she would have just done it to be defiant!
HTH