4 and a half year old dd - unable to get to sleep at night

[hippipotami]

Please help, am exhausted..

My 4 and a half year old dd has for the past few weeks been unable to get to sleep at night. She is doing all the usual delaying tactics - hungry/wants a drink/too hot/too cold/duvet fallen off (she throws it off)/too light/too dark/not comfortable etc etc

We have tried bribing/shouting/pleading/star chart and still no success.

Last night she came downstairs sobbing because it 'takes too long till it is morning'

We have dinner around 6pm, after which she and ds (age 7) get to play for a bit. Then it is pj's/bath/snack/story/teeth time. We wind down gently. Then she goes to bed at around 7.30. Ds gets to stay up for a bit, but usually likes to be in his room reading, so dd is not aware he is up.

I genuinly don't know what to try next. For the last 3 weeks it has been 9.30 before she has finally fallen asleep. She is pretty alert in the mornings, waking up when we start moving about (bathroom etc) in the morning.

She is a very bright and busy little girl who always needs to be thinking/making/doing. I don't know how to get her to switch off.

She used to be pretty good at going to bed, but I think the lighter evenings and the fact her window is open are not helping. I am unable to make her room darker (she has the light on as she is afraid of the dark so black out blinds are a no no) and the open window means she can hear neighbours, birds etc but I don't want her room to become stuffy...
Also, behaviour wise she has become more intense - needing more stimulation, needing to be read to, is forever drawing, trying to write, she is pretty exhausting at the mo!

She used to be quite good at amusing herself for short periods of time, but now she needs constant help. (mind you, she is trying to teach herself to read and write so of course she needs help, but am trying to illustrate how she is suddenly so much 'busier')

Does any of that make sense? Sorry this is so long, give yourself a pat on the back if you made it this far!
Thanks!

Rapid return ala Tanya Byron? My friend just had to do this with her 3.5 year old ds. She took him back to bed 120 times the first night , 3 the second, none the third. She is a single mum so couldn't cope with him refusing to go to bed so had to do it this way (it is the no talking at all, put back in bed, come out again, repeat as necessary technique).....Good luck anyway, haven't got to 4.5 with either of mine yet so am sure I have a lot more to learn....

ah, thanks petitfilou - had not thought of rapid return.
will try that tonight, although she will be sooo frustrated at us not talking to her!
but if it works, then great!!

Would it be a problem to let her stay up later?

Ah juuule we tried that. But then she STILL got out of bed at least twice. So she did not go to sleep till 11pm with the result that I had to wake her for nursery the following morning.

I think she just at the moment has so much going through her little head (summer fair, picnics, starting school in sept, going to holland in July to see grandparents) she is just unable to wind down and switch off.

I cannot think of other ways to tire her out. She rides her bike or scooter every day, plays in the park after we collect ds from school for at least 30 minutes every day, she plays in our garden daily, uses our trampoline almost daily, she comes with me walking the dog in the woods, in short she gets loads of exercise. I am knackered but she is like the flipping duracell bunny - just keeps on going!!

hippipotami, my dd is 6 months younger but otherwise pretty much identical - in bed by 7.30 after the solid bedtime routine that we've always had, at the moment often still pottering around after 9, almost 10 once. Did post about it on the 'sleep' forum, but didn't get any inspiration, I'm afraid, so will watch this with interest! Am not sure about rapid return, suspect she would end up in a frustrated rage with us all - it really does just seem more like she can't get to sleep, rather than she's 'being naughty' or whatever.

Shiny, welcome, am so glad I am not the only one!
That is my worry regarding Rapid Return, she would just end up throwing an almighty tantrum.

She genuinly appears like she wants to sleep but just can't. She is sobbing again because it is too long till morning and she wants to build a lego-house.

I think she must be at an age where there is so much to do, her brain is running overtime.
She has been in bed since 7.40 and already I have been up to her twice, AND I have had to evict her from ds's room (who is allowed to do quiet reading till 8)

I am really really hoping that come Sept when she will be exhausted from school, and the nights will be darker, she will just go back to being a good sleeper.
Both of mine have always been good sleepers so this is a bit of a shock to the system!

My ds has been like this. I agree regarding rapid return; he just feels this as a MASSIVE challenge and could be put back 500 times, no problem - so I just haven't gone down that road as I know it wouldn't suit us.

Ds has now improved but for a long time I stayed with him while he dropped off. It worked well for us because I think he was at that stage you mention, where there is so much going on in their heads and they find it so hard to wind down, and he was having some bad dreams and fears. He found it very reassuring that I was there while he dropped off and usually dropped off within an hour, as opposed to HOURS that he could be up on his own, playing! It also gives you more 'ammo': if ds wanted me there, he knew he had to stop playing, be tucked in, and be laying with his head on the pillow, otherwise I'd go!

It's actually been quite a precious time to me, having that quiet time where we have had some chats about the day etc. And it has caused no long term problems, he now goes to sleep more or less alone, we just check him every few minutes till he drops off.

HTH?

Honoria - I love that idea. In fact, dd often says she wants 'huggles' (after we have kissed and cuddled and she is in bed) when she gets up again. We have been allowing her to play in her bed in the hope she would just drift off, but this is not happening. I think I will tonight try to sit with her, read her a story as usual, but then stay with her till she drops off.

Last night was not too bed. Twice she got out, plus she took a trip to ds's room, and then she came downstairs once and did one more toilet trip. She was asleep just before 9 which is one of the earliest nights she has had recently.

dd1 did this, (all started when her feckin playgroup decided to do yellow ribbons for Madeleine so she was scared of going to bed, but that is another thread)

she goes to bed, has her story then a little chat, kiss goodnight, I go

then she whinges on for a bit "it's boring, I am not tired" etc

so what I did was say "wouldn't it be great if we could stay up ALL NIGHT what would we do?" then she comes up with mad ideas (flying with fairies etc), chatted for about 20 mins (whilst my dinner went cold...)

next night she said "what shall we do tonight?" so we made up more stuff

etc

took a few nights and now I just say "ooooh what shall do all night tonight then?" and she waffles on for about 5 mins then I can go downstairs

fingers crossed it is working

I have been reading this and it says you need to accept their feelings, (ie you are not tired), then construct a fantasy (what shall we do tonight?). Sounds a load of crap but it works in this house.

I hope it helps Hippi. I just think it's a kind and gentle way of helping them for a while, if they do find it problematic to get off to sleep. I'm sure it is possible to be more hardline and to insist on them going to sleep alone (and depending on family circumstances I can see that many people might not be able to take this approach) but I like to avoid struggles and confrontation where at all possible, and this gave us lovely, positive time together instead of endless evenings of aggro!

I love olive's approach of the fantasy stories as well, it's a really sensitive approach. Funnily enough we do similar with ds, he wanted endless stories about our childhoods which we basically ran out of, so we're now to the stage of "once upon a time, when I was a little girl, I was in a spaceship on my way to the Death Star one day......."

oh and meant to say at your dd's playgroup telling them about the madeline issue.....it's just a leeeetle young to be introducing the idea of being stolen from your bed

(indeed too young for scary stories grrrrr)

dd1 is vvvvv sensitive so if I just said GET TO BED AND GO TO SLEEP I would have tears and tantrums

so I go along with it

"yes it is boring in bed how rubbish, wouldn't it be great to stay up allllll night!!!"

"but then you would be tired and fall asleep in your cereal!!! "

also, does she go to playgroup? dd1 is very tired atm and her keyworker says that they are all the same, exhausted little people who need the end of term to arrive, over tired and irritable (just like their parents)

x

Thanks guys - sorry, not been back here for a while.

Last night was good, we allowed her and ds (he did not want to be left out)to stay up till 8.30, indulging dd in her fantasies. We read books, made up stories and just chatted. At 8.30 we put them both to bed, and apart from calling us to tell us her feet were cold (easily fixed with a pair of socks) we did not hear a peep out of dd.

So, you are both right, the soft and gently approach will be the way to go.

We will carry on with this - I really don't like them going to bed on a bad note after shouting, and hopefully we can move through this non-sleeping phase in a few months.

Thanks again!

ps - grrr at Little Oliveoil's nursery telling the Madeleine story. They are too young to understand something like that - of course it will lead to bad dreams.

Olive - yes she goes to nursery every afternoon (linked to our primary school) I have chatted to some of the other mums and a lot of them are having sleep problems. It does not help that the nursery staff are hyping all the kids up about going into reception next year. A few weeks ago my dd came out of nursery shouting 'only 4 weeks left of nursery and then we go to big school!!'. I am sure this is playing on her mind subconsiously (sp) as even though she is a confident little bean outwardly, school is a huge thing for a 4 yr old.

Reading this with interest, as before!
GLad that things improving hippi, will try some of the ideas from hear and I think the time has come for me to give in and get 'that' book!

And am also very shocked at little Oliveoil's playgroup, what on earth did they think they were doing???

'here' not 'hear'