Please help with 4 yr old behaviour

[Nic04]

Would just appreciate some opinions from others with children of a similar age.. my ds has just turned 4. He has a lot of good days, but also has bad days (like everyone else I guess) - in some ways he is great, and other ways he can be hard work. One area that I find difficult is when he knows he's not supposed to do something, but continues to do it anyway.. sometimes I feel as though the message is just not getting through. This morning we were out and he was playing with a toy (not his), & after a while he put the toy down to go and do something else. About 10 minutes later he decided to go back to the toy, but by this time, another child was playing with it. So he barged up and grabbed it from the other child, obviously feeling it was 'his' because he had been playing with it earlier. I told him to give the toy back to the child and explained that if he puts a toy down and walks away, then another child is allowed to come and play with it. He refused to give the toy back to the child even though I asked him several times, & he just kept shouting that he wanted it. So in the end I removed him from the situation, like I have done in the past when he has refused to listen to me. The thing that bothers me is that we have been through this scenario many times before, and every time I think he's 'got it', he starts doing it again. Anyway after the toy incident today, I was trying to find out if he understood what he'd done wrong, and all he said was that "Mummy was naughty for making him give the toy back". ??? Nevermind that he was shouting at me and refusing to do what he was told. So the upshot is, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall and I'm getting a little concerned that he's just not getting the message. The confusing thing is that sometimes I only have to tell him once to stop doing something, but with other things he digs his heels in and I wonder if he's even understanding what he's being told. Is it normal for 4 year olds to still behave this way when playing with toys & other children, or should they have more of an idea about 'play etiquette' (IYKWIM) by now? He knows about taking turns/sharing/not snatching toys, etc etc, but this knowledge just seems to go out the window a lot of the time.

Oh - and when I'm talking to him a lot of the time, he'll appear to listen for a few seconds and and then he'll just start gazing at something else as though he's thinking about the next thing he's going to do, instead of listening to what I'm saying. This happens A LOT. I've recently started asking him to repeat back to me what I've said, so that I know he's heard me. Does this also sound familiar to anyone? Thanks... just feeling a little stressed out by his behaviour at the moment. :(

No carry on! - If hw wont play byt he rules - give him one warning then go. repeat all the time and when you play with him at home show him that you are letting him have a go
Psitive reinforcemtn if he does do well too

oh and dont repeat yourself incessantly - just tellhim ince then go - aoh and dont let him shout at you at all!

last idea this time! - always check if he could be acting up because he is hungry otr tired - how long does he sleep for/

My 4 yr old ds has a very similar behavior. (well almost 4 yrs). The ignoring when your talking is very frustrating. i also ask him to repeat what i have asked. If you look on the other thread What to give time outs for (i think its called that) I gave some advice to another mum about behavior and what we were told at a behavior specialist. hope it can help. If you want to talk or ask more then cat me and i'll email you. jnb

codswallop he has seemed tired today, I did notice that. He doesn't have a daytime sleep anymore but he generally sleeps anywhere between 11-12 hours at night. The other night he slept 12 1/4 hours and was obviously very well behaved that day :) He's also had a bit of sickness recently and has been on several courses of antibiotics, but the fact is that I seem to have had this problem with him for some time now. As I said, other times he can be really great but it's taking a long time to get through to him that he can't always have his own way with things like this. His grandparents spoil him rotten (even though they know I don't like it) and I don't think that helps at all either.

I guess I'm just after some reassurance that it's normal for 4 yr olds to still behave like this sometimes, and whether or not the listening issue is also a problem for other mums. I just don't know if this is all normal or whether there may be some other problems there. :(

tell us what an average days routine is

oh and tell us what he ate too!

Thanks also jnbsmum. I do praise him when he does something right, I say (enthusiastically) "good boy for doing that" or "you're such a clever boy", "you're sitting very nicely at the moment", etc etc. I do keep in mind to praise him whenever I get the chance. I also explain things to him A LOT, because it seems to help him once he understands something. But if he really wants to do something he digs his heels in, as with the toy incident I described before. I also give him time outs in his room but I make him sit on the floor, he is not allowed to play with anything while he's in there (and I do check up on him, lol).

Anyway - daily routine differs a bit, his grandparents have him on Mondays for several hours and he goes to pre-school on Thursdays and Fridays. On the other days, we do some activities at home or I'll take him out to the park or to the shops, or to play dates with friends. I usually try to make sure we do something every day, even if it's just for a while. If I'm just doing housework at home, he'll either play with his toys or watch a video or something. He also loves playing kid's games on the computer, I don't know whether this is good or bad.

Diet (could be better) - he has cereal for breakfast, usually a sandwich for lunch, & for morning & afternoon tea he'll have fruit, rice crackers, yoghurt, cup of flavoured milk, etc. For dinner he will usually have something like meat & veges, fish fingers or chicken with chips (the oven-bake ones), home made pizza, etc etc. He's gotten a bit fussier with food over the last year, he won't eat rice or pasta and he doesn't like eggs or cheese anymore. I just try to give him things I know he will eat & I try to make them nutritious, although I know he could probably do with some more variety in his diet. He's got a pretty good appetitite otherwise, and I don't think he's going hungry at all.

sounds fine to me
regular snacks too?
mine get more happy afyer a littel biscuit of r a banana

It sounds really, really normal to me. I think children do glaze over when being told off. It's hard for them to keep their concentration. Actually, it's also what I do if dh is explaining something tedious about the computer so I kind of understand. he finds it infuriating too.
And I do think the impulsiveness and 'forgetting' are also normal - the frontal lobe of the brain that governs impulsiveness is still pretty immature at four. It's frustrating being little and humiliating to be told off. This doesn't mean you should let him rampage about grabbing things, of coure, but from my dealings with small children, I would say it is well within any definition of normal. I'd personally keep the tellings off very brief and in simple language, and whenever possible move him on rather than engaging in arguments which tend to lead to punishments. Ie, say, "I know you want to play with the toy, and expect you feel disappointed/frustrated/cross, but it's this little boy's turn now. What shall we play with instead?" When ds (nearly three) is getting upset and cross, I sometimes say, "what shall we do to make you happy now?" and he quite often comes up with his own solutions - it's worth a try!

Agree with Coddy. A drink or biscuit can work wonders for bad temper.

I feel a bit bad now, it just occurred to me that he did say he was hungry at some point but we had quite a busy morning and I was trying to get things done. Not a good combination, slightly irritable child and a mother pressed for time. I think sometimes I forget that he's only four because his understanding at times is really good, so when he does the wrong thing it seems deliberate IYKWIM. He is very persistent/trying at times, but then perhaps I could take a simpler approach at handling him... sigh. :(

Oh also a friend of mine started giving her son a wal planner showing him exaclty what they were doing each day in whick order, so her felt in control and knew what was going on

lol nic! I ma sure you will solve this really easily
make time for cuddles and messing around chatting ont he sofa too

hows things today?

Only just seen this, and wanted to say THANK YOU for posting this nic04! My DS1 is just turned 4 and what you've described sounds horribly familliar, I am at the end of my tether with him one minute, and feeling like an appalling Mother the next. v interested in all the advice so far. To give a typical days example he has just absolutely soaked me to the skin with the hose in the garden because i made the mistake of telling him I was going to turn it off before I actually did it (he had been filling his paddling pool). This is not the first time it's happened, but I thought he'd got the message "Mummy does not like getting wet" obviously not. Some days it seems like he just wants to have his fun and hang the consequences for other people (namely me or DS2 ).
Interested in the comments about what he eats, as mine is constantly nagging me for something to eat, and if I'm not careful will just eat all day, is this normal?
Anyway, forgive me for going on a bit, just wanted to let you know you are not going through this alone.

This is also familular in our house, my dd1 has just turned 4 and she is really starting to br stubborn about things too. She also constantly asks for food too and it's driving me mad. At first I thought well she must be hungry but I have noticed it's always when I'm getting ready for work or dealing with dd2 or when I walk in the door. It must be an attention thing. I was lucky in that I did'nt have a terrible two's issue with her but she is definatly testing her independance I think.

Hi, it's taken me a while to get back on here. I'm glad to hear that other people are in a similar boat! Ds has been a bit better the last few days, last week after all his appalling behaviour, he went off his food and then I found out he had an ear infection and a sore throat. He's on antibiotics now so hopefully he will at least start to feel better.

Their behaviour is so up and down sometimes isn't it, one day ds will be great and the next day he'll be a nightmare. One thing is for sure at the moment, he's definitely trying to find out exactly how much power he holds in this house. Constantly arguing and negotiating if he doesn't want to do something, and tests the boundaries to see how far he can go. SIGH... I can't wait for the day when all this will be a distant memory, but I'll probably have problems of another kind by then.

Ds 4 yrs and8 months has been doing this for some time now. Even before he turned 4! It is normal but infuriating, and I hate to say it, but it gets worse apparently they don't calm down till they reach 6 or 7!!!! His new school teacher came for a home visit yesterday and he was quite abrupt to her I was really embarrased. he is against me all the time even though I am calm, don't pick him up on everything. He has three firm warnings, then he goes to another room or I am beginning to take his fav toys away for a week, he doesn't like that. we are constantly telling him off it seems from the time we get up till he goes to bed. We tend to ignore alot of his "picklish" behaviour or we would be exhausted. But he knows who is boss in the end and mummy will not stand for too much picklish naughtiness!

Hi, I have also been experiencing really bad behaviour from my 4 year old for a while now. It has come to the point where I wonder what I am doing wrong. I am also worried that there might be some other reason maybe medical and not just a learning curve for him. Sometimes he is so good and it is usually when he is getting my undivided attention all the time. If I answer the phone then he starts creating or if I am talking to another member of the family or a friend. He can be quite excitable at times, however, I don't find that too much of a problem. My problem is when I ask him to do something or not to do something he will start to kick and hit and will continue to do so for a while. I try and keep calm even though I am boiling up inside. He also ignors anything I say and looks away. It is bad enough when he does it in only my company but I feel so helpless and such a failure when he does it infront of other people(especially infront of family) as they tend to say I should do this and I should do that to try and stop his tantrums. Now that I have read a few tips in this section I am going to try these. I am not expecting sucess straight away but hopfully I will see a change in his behaviour soon
Tiv.

Moosh, I agree with you - my ds aged 5 is still like this. He drives me mad. I would say it is alot worse when he is tired or hungry.

Nic04 - my sympathys my son is 4.5 and just started reception - sounds like the same person. He is finding it difficult at school, being told what to do etc, yet he was at the school nursery for a year before (part time) he pushes, knocks over chidrens towers they have built and will take toys if he has been playing with them first, he never listens to us at home, I have to make real eye contact and sometimes even then its as if he has forgot a few minutes later, yet at times like bedtime he's an angel and my elder son is a pain in the bum. Sorry no real advice, just wanted you to know that your not alone.

Hi - I have had a nightmare day with my 4 year old and it has made me feel so much better to see that I am not the only one. My son is wonderful is many ways thankfully as at the moment he is really hard work. A lot of his anger seems to be directed at me - i wonder if that is a delayed reaction to our daughter (7 months). He is very aggressive which I find very difficult and I hate to admit it that I have smacked him on the hand recently (Band Mummy)- I know I know I am telling him not to hit etc. but he is so defiant. I have star charts and don't let him watch tv but maybe these phases (I hope it is a phase) run their course ? Is the testesterone boost true ? - perhaps that would explain the aggression. Also the outburst are often over the smallest issues. Tiredness is also a possibility - I try to keep him awake during the day so that he will go down by 7.30 - if he doesn't sleep during day he usually gets 111/2 - 12 hours sleep - surely that's enough ? He goes to playschool 5 morning/ week which he loves and he seems to be doing very well - I have been puttinh 'Cool Oil' in his food which I think seems to be helping his concentration. playgroup seem to think he is great so I suppose it could be worse.

i was so glad to read your comments - we were wonding was there something wrong with our wee one - if anyone can tell me when this is likely to end I would be so grateful.

I'm so glad to read this. My ds has also just turned 4 and this all sounds soooo familiar! The whole neighbourhood seems to be getting used to me dragging a screaming child down the road. Some days are constant battles other times he is so sweet and kind. He also gets that blank distracted look and I have to physically turn his head to get eye contact as he is just not listening. I really did begin to wonder if he had some kind of learning dificulty especially as he just can't seem to concentrate. It's nice to see that so many of you have the same issues.

I was beginning to think I was the only one