20mth old behaves more like 12mth old

[nutcracker]

This has been nugging me for some time but I just kept thinking I was being daft, but I am almost convinced that Ds is behind developmentally speaking.

He is still not talking hardley at all. He doesn't say mom or dad, he used to but not now. He can say goodnight and thankyou BUT noone else knows he is saying it, only me IYKWIM.
I got him to say tree the other day and he walked around all day saying it, but now he doesn't know it.
If i say where are the trees then he will look at them but won't say it.

He just seems to be quite a baby still IYKWIM, whereas my friends son who is 3 mths older was more like a toddler at that age.

Do you know what i mean ?? I don't think i'm explaining very well.

Oh and the other thing is that if I or anyone else call him then 9 times out of 10 he won't respond at all, won't even flinch.

I think I know what you mean. This sounds a lot like my ds2 (18 months). His physical development is great but in other ways he seems like a 12 month old in an 18-month-old's body.

Sometimes I think maybe i'm just babying him so it's my fault.

I don't know, it's just niggling at me, as his development seems to have stopped at 12 mths IYKWIM.

Actually Coppertop, that is spot on, his physical development is great but his mental development seems to have stopped or be behind at least.

So what do i do ?? Can i do anything ??

Have you had his hearing tested recently? Has he suffered with alot of ear infections? My dd (now 2.4) was very slow speaking and had recurring ear infections - she was identified as having 'glue ear' and was fitted with gromits at 20mths. Since then she's come on in leaps and bounds and chats away like a mad thing!!

If it isnt his hearing then it won't do any harm to have it tested - suggest you ask the doctor to refer you if poss. Certainly the hosp. hearing test was much more thorough than my health visitor with a rattle and a hand clap!!

Hope this helps

Ds2 has been referred for an appointment with the Paediatrician and the SALT. We got the referral so early because of ds1's history.

It might be worth asking for a referral for your ds if you have concerns. Did you try the CHAT test with him? If he passed or would've passed then at least that's something to cross off the list.

I did think of getting his hearing checked yeah. Dd had hers done last month and hers was fine. Can't help think actually that ds wouldn't have passed it.

I will try the CHAT test again too, although I find it a bit confusing.
I did look at it a while ago and remember being a bit concerned. I'll have another look.

The hearing test sounds like a good idea. Ds2's has been checked twice at the hospital and he doesn't really suffer from ear infections so I'm sure that deafness isn't the reason for his delays. This may sound like an odd question but do you find that he completely ignores loud noises but will look round if there's a quiet sound?

Erm, had to think hard about that CT and actually i'm not too sure.
He definatly ignores his name. Almost like he doesn't know it's his, which i assume he should by now right ??

I'll try and check tommorow which things he seems to hear or not.

Right just had another quick look at the CHAT test.
In the ask the parent section the only questions that raised probs were

• Does child take an interest in other children ?
  Answer - No only siblings.

• Does your child ever pretend ??
  Answer - Only pretend on the phone but won't actually talk, just pick it up and hold it to his ear.

• Does your child point with index finger to ask for something ?
  Answer - Not sure, will check tommorow.

• Does he point with index finger to show an interest in something ??
  Answer - I think No, but will check tommorow.

• • Can he play properly with small toys without just mouthing or fiddling with them (ie cars/bricks). Answer - Cars he fiddles with, bricks he jsut throws on the floor, has no interest in them at all.

• Does he ever bring stuff to show you ??

Answer - Only if asked.

The H.V bit was this ...

• Eye contact - Not sure but think he would of

• Would he look to see what was being pointed at - No

• Say make a cup of tea, would he pretend ?? NO (might pretend to drink it)

• Would he point when asked "show me xxxx" - ?? Not sure

• Could he build tower of bricks ?? Not a chance

This was exactly the situation I was in 5 years ago with ds2.His birthday is January but he didn't walk until the following september,19 months ,I don't think I was so aware of it as ds1 was very advanced on speech so I just thought that it was ds1 that was advanced not ds2 who was behind.He was also a cherubic baby ,all curls and dimples and to be honest I carried on treating him as a baby.Anyway to cut a long story short we have had speech therapy HV appointments etc,ears tested and paed appointments because of a chronic constipation problem (fiinally solved by homeopath) I could go on but the general opinion was that he just had a non specific developmental delay,it's almost as if he stopped developing at 12 months nad then started again 9 months later.He is 7.5 now and and still more like 6.5.

He started at the fairly academic independent school that his brother stated at(I can't believe I did this too him adn even now feel hugely guilty) but it was a nightmare because he was more like 3.5 not 4.5,the school were lovely, they had known him since birth and could not have been more supportive but it was obviously not the school for him,so we moved him to a small less academic school with very good SEN support and he has blossonmed.Even manging to write joined up!

In retrospect and after a lot of reading on mumsnet and elsewhere I think that he is at least borderline dyspraxic,he eats neatly and can ride a bike with stabilisers and his speech really took off at about 6 years,the speech therapist said he had a large tongue which did not help him especially as his general co ordination and muscle tone is not good ,although strangely he kicks a ball more naturally than his elder brother,however he only learnt how to ride a scooter last year and his 2 year old younger brother can do this already.

I also think that some of it is just personality and one of his teachers who is in her fifties did say to me that 30 years ago he would have been classed a latedeveloper and nobody would have been worried as long as he got there in the end but now we have very rigid ideas of what is a normal spectrum development and what is not.A lot of his problems have been compounded by a lack of confidence in his abilities because he is so used to not being able to do as well as his peers,but with the schools support we are conquering this and at the moment I am loath to look for a for,a formal diagnosis but keen to let him progress at his pace and gain some confidence

Incidentally your description of your ds is identical to mine of ds2 at the same age,I would stress that we never had a problem with eye contact,it would also have been a perfect description of my own brother 30 years ago and this hasd kept me going,he has a Msc from Imperial College and runs his own business,it all came together for him when he was about 10.

I am racked with guilt daily that we did not pick up his problems earlier and always wondering if it is something that I did so you are a fantasic mum for raising it now,I just kept allowing myself to be erassured by people and saying"he's ffine ,don't worry" and bt dh who didn't want him labelled so don't allow yourself to be fobbed off and go with your instincts,I wish I had done ,even though things seem to be working out now.

Thanks foe sharing that Philly. I know what you mean about not wanting him to be labelled e.t.c.

The things i was unsure of last night on the CHAT test were the pointing, which i'm still a bit unsure of but I asked him where the clock was this morning and he gave me a blank look, and i know he knows what the clock is, but he didn't respond at all.
He did however point to something to show it to me. We were coming out of the bedroom and he pointed at dp's guitar and said Guitar (well sort of).
I'm still not sure if he points to ask for something. From memeory i think he tends to just shout and look in the direction of the thing he wants.
I've just asked him again where is several things, and he either just gets up and gets them or looks at them, no pointing.
O.k i just asked 'where is the window' and he did point to it.

Where is the light got a general pointing around the room response.

Now i just pointed to something to see if he would follow but he didn't, he just looked at my face, didn't follow to where my finger was pointing at all.

Does that make any sense to anyone ??
It's a clear as mud to me ??

Going back to your post Philly, Ds cannot kick a ball at all, and still cannot eat with a spoon or fork. He has a trike but cannot ride it at all.
He is however an excellant climber

When should his next development check be ?? I thought it was around 18mths but haven't been called about it.

Well done to your ds2 for making so much progress, Philly. Don't beat yourself up over it all. The only reason that my ds2 is already on a referral list is because his older brother is autistic and so we already knew what kinds of things we should be looking out for. With ds1 we knew at 18 months or so that he was somehow 'different' but didn't know enough to take things further.

Nutty - your answers to the CHAT test are almost exactly the same as for my ds2. The only difference is that ds2 has already started to build little towers of bricks. Do you have a sympathetic HV/GP you could talk to?

Missed your last post, Nutty. It sounds a lot like ds2, except ds2 doesn't say any words at all. Here the next development check is at 2yrs old but it might be different where you are.

Actually CT i don't have a clue who my H.V is at the mo as my old one left a while ago.
My g.p is a bit of a dope.
I'm sure my friends ds had just had a development check and he is 2 next week, so i'd have a while to wait for my Ds's check as he's not 2 until december. Not sure i can wait that long.

I think i'll observe him a bit more over the hols, and make a list of my concerns, then when Dd's are back at school i'll go and see the H.V.

Mind you if I speak to the same one i spoke to about getting some help with Dd's behaviour, i'll be banging my head against a brick wall.

Oh just thought of another thing i wanted to add.

Ds is obssesed with his fingers. He stood in the ball pool yesterday surrounded by loads of screaming shouting kids and just stood trying to pick skin off his fingers. A little boy even knocked him over a couple of times, and he didn't react at all, just got back up abd carried on messing with his fingers. If anyone spoke to him he didn't respond either.

I find that a bit odd. I know kids can get engrossed in stuff, but even so.

Actually thinking about it he has a couple of obsesions.
He loves the vacuum to bis, would play with it all day if i let him, and he will watch the same Balamory dvd over and over again. I now have to hide it as he goes bannanas if he finds it and i won't put it on.

Our HV team is fairly useless too. They've shown no interest at all in ds1, even when we got his dx. The Paed referral for ds2 was made by our portage/Early Years worker, who also happens to do a lot of work with the Child Development Centre.

Ds2's obsession is anything round - preferably shiny. His favourite toy is an old freebie CD.

His physical skills are really good. It's one of the first things that people comment on when they see him on the go. My concern about the physical side of things is that he is already very definitely left-handed. I don't mean that in the sense that I don't want him to be a leftie but more that handedness shouldn't be so obvious so young. It makes me wonder whether he has a sensory problem with the right hand which prevents him from using it as much.

Nutcracker- the pointing thing is just how ds1 was. I would say to him "where's the aeroplane" and he would look but not point. He would also hear a plane look at the plane, look at me then say "a - ee ain". This was all good stuff as it did demonstrate that he had some shared attention, but the lack of pointing in his case was crucial. Sometimes he would kind of point, but usually with a fist. And to show me things in books he would pick up my hand and place it on the picture rather than using his own index finger.

Don't worry too much about the tower of bricks- it's in there partly as a kind of control. Ds1 could (with coaching) build a pile of bricks- well enough to "pass" his 2 year check.

Given your list I do think a referral would be sensible- just to see what's going on. You need to be referred to a SALT and also (more importantly) a developmental paed. The best approach may be to go to your GP armed with a copy of the CHAT test and ask for a referral.

Don't think of it as labelling. It's signposting- and geting in early can make the hugest difference. If I would change anything I did with ds1 I would have gone in at age 2 with a full on ABA programme- lots and lots of intervention. Or I would have pushed for the Hanen programme that I was offered then un-offered iyswim by the dithering SALT. I didn't because I was told to wait and see. For some children that approach may work, but for him it was wrong. I don't think getting in early can ever do any damage (providing the intervention is appropriate). Also by getting on a list now you will be waiting and seeing anyway as the waiting lists are long.

NC - Early intervention is definitely crucial, but you have to be quite pushy! I have had to fight for everything and when I asked for dd to be referred to a SALT at 20 months I was almost laughed at! Eventually she was seen at 2 when a dx of language disorder (severe) was made. So much has happened since then! Dd has had lots of help and in the past year regular speech therapy. Her dx now is a mild language disorder.
I seriously believe (and know from talking to other mums) that early intervention is crucial! I am not implying in anyway that your ds has a language disorder but I do believe that just to put your mind at rest a referral to a developmental paed. is well worth doing.
I also wish that I had, had the chance to access the Hanen programme when dd was 2. We did it when dd was 3.4months and by then she was talking too much and it wasn't really of much use!
Have you also looked on the AFASIC website or ICAN? They should have useful information.
Good luck and if you need anymore advice I am more then happy to give it.

I agree that early intervention can make all the difference. The waiting lists tend to be fairly long. Ds1 had to wait 6 months for a SALT assessment and another 6 months for actual SALT. The Paed's waiting list was a bit shorter. Ds1 waited for 4 months for the initial visit with the Paed. The full assessment took place 3 months later.

If this is any help... here goes
my dd is 12 mths
I got her checked over developmentally, see my prev thread on what should a 21 mths old be able to do from last week.
dev paed this week has said she has no significant delays that need attention, her delays are mostly motor and down to her petit size, she will eventualy catch up as she is aggressively tackling every option each day.
With the language dd has been on and off, now here is what I was told, two days ago.
A baby should be able to look for a familiar object or person by name by pointing a finger/fist or arm by 12 mths, any comeplete lack of interest or failure to recognise familiar things at that age should constitute enough for an immediate referral.
He said that that sort of delay needs to be looked into, 50% of the time, the child can just be a late developer, the other 50% could have issues that early intervention can help assist with and bring on.
this paed is very senior, Dr Mike Tettenborn, he is very in the know about autism and associated disorders.
Thankfully my dd is in the clear due to her constant, whats this whats that questions...
Do push for a referral, this is your 3rd child, you are the best judge of whether he is doing ok or not, so follow your instincts.
Crikey hope at least some of this made sense...
xx

dd is 21 mths sorry not 12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you looked at any of the dyspraxia foudation tests I found these quite useful,also ds1(no problems)never manged to ride a trike and the bike came quite late.I would persue the hearing test as this could account for his not taking account of other children.
ds2 never did the pointing either but at the time I was always telling ds1 off for pointing (not realising the significance)he also never went through the imaginative play stage at least not until he was about 5.I notice this more now that I have ds3 at 2.5 and doing all these things although no pointing again.

Out of interest what do preople think about having a diagnosis at this stage.He is about to go to junior school but is in the independent sector,would it help him a lot given that he is making progress anyway?Can anyone recommend a suitable person for the assessment.

A label/dx is only good if it opens doors for a child. Thta's what I have been told anyway! There are some children that are obviously autistic, dyspraxic, ADHDetc and dx are easy to make when so clear cut! Then you have children like my dd who has some traits of a few but her main dx being speech and language disorder. I am very happy with this as it has opened all of the doors needed. Especially as we managed to get a statement with it! So it depends really on each individual child/family!