Just come back from pre-school and I'm very upset

[frazzledazzle]

I've just spoke to the nursery nurse who has suggested that we refer DS1 to the childrens centre because the nursery has 2 areas of concern regarding him.

1: He toe walks.

2: He has obssessional behaviour regarding animals particularly zebras and when he gets to nursery the first thing he does is go to look for some.

She also mentioned he got hurt yesterday and so started running round hysterical and wouldn't be consoled.

I've noticed the toe walking myself and was planning to get him refered when DC3 is born I'm 36+3.
But it concerned me what she was getting at regarding the behaviour,couldn't that just be normal 3 year old behaviour?

I came away quite upset and DH is fuming that they could just drop that into conversation without proper explanation.

I think my son is fine and just feel a bit scare mongered and hormonal.

What would you think if it was said to you?

Agreed, perhaps she's new to this responsibility, its a very difficult thing to talk about from her point of view. Difficult in the sense that you don't know what reaction you'll get and it being so emotive an all.....

A teacher or a nursey nurse should tell a parent that they notice communication, language or social difficulties. It is NOT their place to diagnose or even suggest that a child has autism.

They should just say to the parents "we are concerned about your child's speech development and suggest that it might be a good idea to discuss this with your GP/ health visitor/ or see a paediatrian"

Also if a developmental concern is raised then it should be done in a planned meeting rather than at the last minute when you are picking up your child and there are loads of other parents over hearing.

I agree that many nurseries are run by people with no concept of what its like to be a parent. Unfortunately the pay in nurseries is extremely low and attracts low ablity staff.

Frances, your absolutely right, they should not say we are concerned they have autism but should say we are concerned with this problem and would like an expert to assess it.

My DD2 likes walking backwards and loves dogs of all kinds. Does this mean she has a medical problem ?
Of course not!
My DD1 has been obsessed about Lion king and lions for the last 2yrs and she is only 4yrs old, yet she is bright for her age.
Wait to see what the assesment shows and try not to worry.
AB

' agree that many nurseries are run by people with no concept of what its like to be a parent. Unfortunately the pay in nurseries is extremely low and attracts low ablity staff. '

Do you have any idea how offensive a comment like this is to the majority of hardworking, dedicated, highly qualified and extremely experienced nursery nurses like myself who put their heart and soul into looking after the children in their care?

Yes the pay is a joke but there is a thing called job satisfaction which fortunately compensates for this.

ps- some of as 'nursery staff' actually have degrees! Imagine that!

Sorry to highjack but this REALLY upset me.

The behaviour seems very normal for a child that age, and you are already aware of/ dealing with the toe-walking. Unless she can get him referred more quickly than you can, just tell her that you are dealing with it and will inform her of any progress.

I would also like to support the nursery and think you are being a bit over senstive about this.

They have concerns (may be totally unfounded) and they have told you. They have not decided to ignore it. TBH maybe they thought it would upset you less by dropping into conversation rather than arranging a meeting. And also they may be young and therefore unused to dealing with such things. I teach and TBH sometimes I do bring concerns to parents when I see them. And after 6 years I still find it intimidating to deal with parents.

If I were you I would be grateful I have staff who care about my child and his development.

Telling a parent that their child should be refered to a children's centre is fairly extreme. I think frazzledazzle's husband is right to be angry that they should drop into that kind of conversation without notice.

"ps- some of as 'nursery staff' actually have degrees! Imagine that! "

They aren't medically qualified. Having a couple of lectures as part of a degree in early years practice does not make you an expert in child development.

I had to take my son out of a playgroup because a stupid pre school leader thought she could stop my two year old son toe walking by putting him on the naughty chair. (Our child physio was considering treating him with botox and plaster casts at the time) The pre school leader kept telling me that she had a degree in early years pracice.

Luckily we found a nursery where the nursery nurses were lovely and very professional. My son loved it and absolutely thrived.

frazzledazzle, if its any consolation children's centres take more notice of what Mum thinks than what nurseries think. If your gut feeling is that your son is OK, then I am sure he is OK

I didn't realise when I first posted that all the behaviour concerns the nursery nurse raised could be linked to autism so I've reverted to being slightly alarmed by this.
The lady in question has been at the nursery for many years so must have seen many different types of children,and although my gut is telling me my son is fine and the word autism wasn't actually used,I'm scared to ask her if that's what she meant incase I start to get upset again.

We're entering the 3rd week of waiting for this "urgent referal". Still no news of any appointments.

I read your post with interest - I've not read all of them but I just wanted to note this story.

I attend a music group with DS in the local library. One day when we were in the middle of "the wheels on the bus" one of the older boys (who must have been about three) got upset when the song leader did the verses in the wrong order - "no no no it's the bell now". I thought this was very cute and endering and mentioned it to my mum (who is a nursery teacher) her immediate reaction was "oh oh" I asked her what she meant as she mentioned obsessive behaviour!

This really suprised me as to me it was sweet that the little boy knew the song and liked the verses to be in the same order whereas to a nursery teacher that is immediately a problem child - seems mad to me but perhaps it is so ingrained into nursery staff to look out for obsessive behaviour that they go over board?

To us it seems like normal toddler behaviour but to them it could be the start of a problem?

Just wanted to share the story as seems relevant. Hopefully in your case it is just a case of an over enthusiastic nursery teacher - as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

Sorry it posted before I had finished. Take the issue by the horns and do as I did, and take a depth breath and say to these "professionals": stop pussyfooting and tell me this straight. If there is a problem? Where's the appointment and specialist? I asked for everything to be put in writing. And guess what? I have nothing in writing - just verbal insults about the "environment" (i.e our family) in which she's brought up in. I can assure you dd is brought up in a outstanding environment. As I said, I'm still waiting.

Frazzledazzle, I don't think you need to worry about the obsessive toy thing, my DS1 runs every morning to get a particular train out of the toy cupboard at Preschool. He isn't like this about anything at home, but I guess it's a comfort thing. I've noticed a lot of other children have favourite items at DS's preschool, not a worry.

If you have not noticed anything at home, then please don't concern yourself.

Children are also all different when they are upset/hurt themselves.

You are sorting out the toewalking, I'm pleased the nursery nurse has apologised for inappropriately worrying and upsetting you.

mumofhelen,

My son had an "urgent" referal to the child development when he was 22 months old. Our GP was concerned that he was still crawling and could only manage two steps on tiptoe. My son's toewalking was inhibiting his development.

The child development centre took about 4 weeks to phone me and then I had I to wait another two weeks for the appointment. If you have heard nothing then prehaps you need to go back to to your GP.

frazzledazzle,

Toewalking can be a symptom of loads of nasty things. However if your child had something nasty then there would be other symptoms.

My son was assessed by a physio and a paediatrian. They checked my son's balance, muscle tone and reflexes. This was done mostly through play. My son's general development was assessed. The paediatrian also arranged for my son to be assessed by an orthopedic surgeon and have a blood test to rule out a range of muscle conditions. The conclusion was that my son was an idiopathic toewalker. (Ie. they got no real idea why he was an extreme toewalker, but our physio was sure it was something orthopedic)My son was treated with home exercising programme and orthoric inserts.

As a child gets older it becomes harder to toewalk. Most children out grow toewalking without any intervention.

I have no idea what toe walking can be a symptom of but I think it is good to get it checked out - I know a couple of children who did this and one in particular can't now walk "properly" in spite of many years of physio, etc. The fact you did it yourself means it is probably just something that needs a bit of treatment or monitoring....I do it myself (especially on cold floors) and have noticed my children do too!

I wouldn't worry too much about the zebras.... (it's elephants here...)

The toe-walking can be addressed when the time is right, but it's just another form of walking. I had a boyfriend who was treated for it years ago as a child, but still retained an element of it in his walking ... and I also thought he looked incredibly graceful when he moved about.

I think the nursery nurse was out of order, to be honest. All three-year olds display enigmatic behaviour ... it's normal. Don't bottle it up in your condition! If you feel the need to say something to her, then get it off your chest

I prefer to think of my son as having an alternative walking gait rather than not walking properly. Functional walking is the most important thing. Mty son can walk or run to the places he wants to. His walking gait might be a little unusual, but I am just glad He can walk!

If you watch people in a street you will see that everyone has their own walking gait. Some people have turned out feet, other people have turned in feet. A walking gait is unique to each individual.

I discharged my son from physio at the age of three and half years old. If being a toe walker bothers him then he can have treatment for it when he is older. I felt that the treatments for toewalking (ie. serial casting, botox or cutting the tendon) were worst than the problem. My son would not like being in pain and wearing plaster casts for months on end. I felt that the risks associated with these treatments were too high for what is a cosmetic problem. Our physio supported my decision and been told that if my son's toewalking gets worst or he loses his functional walking then he can get an appointment for physio without going on the waiting list.

My son has not suffered any bullying at school for having a strange walking gait.

' ps- some nursery nurses actually have degrees, imagine that! '

This was refering to your comment

'Unfortunately the pay in nurseries is extremely low and attracts low ability staff. '

It had nothing at all to do with being medically qualified. I would never attempt to 'diagnose' a child of having any disability or learning difficulty, my job is monitor the development of the children in my care and if anything concerns me there are procedures to follow. In the case of the OP and in other cases on this thread it seems that these procedures were not followed and the result is upset parents (rightly so) and a breakdown in communication.

Unfortunately there are nursey workers who do think they know it all (I have worked with a few) but please do not assume we are all like this.

I really think you should be absolutely straight with your nursery frazzledazzle, they need to overhaul their policies on communicating with parents before they upset somebody else but I still think they probably have your ds's best interests at heart. Hope you can sort this out soon.

I was over the moon when The staff at my sons nursery suggested he se a speach thearapist for assesment soon after he started there. Up until then no one had taken my concerns seriously.

An experienced childcare professional will see loads and loads of children of similar ages, so it can be easier for them to spot where there may be potential problems and should be suggesting referals where they feel necesary, agree not diagnoses.

dd2 pre-school upset me by asking if there was any autism in the family. tbh it was more they were noticing the things i did. dd2 has been seen at the child development clinic and for now autism is ruled out. she has however been seen by physio (dd2 dx as hyperflexiable by them, and low muscle tone which could account for her clumsiness, graceful she isnt), has had hearing checked, and passed, sight check all ok, but also seen by SALT. she does have a speech delay. and lots of energy and frustration.

i stil lwont consider sending dd3 to the same pre-school becuase of the way they handled bringing up dd2 issues, but i am grateful as they got us into the system a bit quicker than self referral.

True they don't all get it right, in fact one of DS's previous teachers asked if he had experienced a head injury or if we had some one who was deaf in the family. She also said she had been in touch with his last school to get more information about his problems, but said they weren't very cooperative.

I said perhaps they seemed un-cooperative with info as there was no info to get and perhaps she should have asked me as his parent about it, instead of waiting 4mths into the school year. He did have a speach delay problem, he was refered to a speach thearapist 3yrs before this who saw him for a couple of sessions and then discharged him as she thought he was progressing fine.

I guess only time will tell. My dd will be starting in a private nursery in September. She will be 2yrs and 9 months. She will spend this month and next month enjoying the "settling in" period. All very organised. The staff met her the other day and didn't have any concerns about her physical abilities at all. Her speech is somewhat more of a concern. She babbles a lot with the odd understandable word - a bit like that drunken Lord from the Fast Show. The staff said dd is not the first they've had with poor speech and unlikely to be the last. She was an early walker - someone said once "early walkers, late talkers". Perhaps it's because she's left handed? I don't know. I've also taken a step back, spent some time with my ex-colleagues from work who don't have any children, and they have helped me put everything into perspective. There's no point getting worked up about it - doesn't help. And as for the nursery nurse who insulted my family - since I don't have to see or hear of her ever again, I no longer care what she thinks! It will be interesting to see just how long "urgent" is - perhaps 8 weeks is the norm. I hope it all works out for everyone who have similar problems. I will keep you informed of developments - perhaps every fortnight.

Has been 1 month now but still no sign of this urgent appoitment. In fact the only appointment which came through is an optician's appointment. Perhaps there's been a mix up?

not read whole thread, but ds1 heads off to find the nearest car. won't be settled unless one is in his hand. did this at nursery & now at cminders.

The hearing test appointment has come through. Dd has been "penciled" in for a speech assessment in September! Urgent = 4 months here. Oh well, better late than never.