BITING: 19mo DD2 is going to badly injure DD1 - may already have given her permanent scars. PLEASE HELP

[franch]

Initially I accepted this as a phase but lately it's increased at a frightening rate - it's happened twice already this morning and the first bite drew a lot of blood. DD1 (3y) has several scars now, and DH (a doctor) reckons some of them could be permanent. The bites are really severe.

DH sees childhood injuries daily and is worried that DD2 (19m) may seriously injure DD1, especially if she goes for her face. We're also worried because altho DD1 isn't a biter, when all this started she did bite a girl at nursery, and if this continues she could do it again - in which case she will (quite rightly) be sent home.

Because we put DD1 on the step if she's really naughty, I've started doing this with DD2 when she bites (partly as a demonstration to DD1 that DD2 isn't allowed to get away with murder), but DD2 really isn't old enough to understand and just walks back to where we are. After the 2nd incident today DH whisked her upstairs and put her in her cot for a bit but that didn't seem to bother her much either. She does say sorry and cuddle DD1 if told to, but generally finds being told off ('NO BITING') pretty funny.

There must be something we can do? Or does DD1 just have to take her chances?

I know that I will get shouted at for saying this, but try biting dd2. My grandmother apparently did this to my uncle and he never bit anyone again. Other than that, maybe speak to your health visitor/doctor and see if they have any suggestions. Can you keep them physically apart for a while?

Have certainly heard that advice before, so won't shout at you!

Wish I could keep them apart ..... DD1 back at nursery next week so at least that's 4 mornings a week dealt with!

DD2 is getting a jab next week so I'll ask the nurse who's the best person to talk to. Thanks mumpbump

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Golly I feel for you. I have DS1 (4), DS2 (almost 3) and DD (19 months). Up until very recently DD was biting DS2 constantly and drawing blood occasionally. She would bite DS1 occasionally and sometimes try and bite me and DH. Mainly she was biting DS2 because he wasn't able to articulate what he wanted from her, so he would take something, then she would bite. It was awful. We also moved from London to Texas in February.
Now I don't know how to help with the severity of the bites, but things have improved hugely here. DS2 and DD are in a Montessori for 3 mornings a week (when I was enrolling them she took a massive chunk out of DS2...). The teacher was brilliant: she explained to me that biting really isn't any worse than hitting or pushing, it is just that we react in a very extreme way. She said that the victim should be comforted (which made me realise that I had been ignoring poor DS2 in my anxiety to tell DD off/make her face the wall etc.) and that the biter should simply be sent away with no fuss and no attention, but told that they had hurt the victim. This calm quiet approach has really worked for us.
Thinking about your worries about the biter going for the face, I can understand this but really I don't think that the biter is going to be capable of making that kind of assessment: i.e choosing the face over somewhere else (if you see what I mean). PLEASE hang in there. I had DD biting, DS2 not talking and regressing due to the move, life was very tough, and it is all so much better now...
Now I just have to sort out DD's sleeping...
Really hope that helps

Thanks so much tiggy that's really helpful. And good to know someone else has been in such a similar situation (and with extra challenges on top!).

I didn't think DD2 would actually choose to bite DD1's face - she tends to bite whatever's nearest (often, thankfully, that's something inanimate), so what with the way the two of them roll around together and mess about literally in each other's faces, it just seems like a matter of time before she goes for a cheek/ear/eye/nose. I've seen her try to bite DD1's scalp a few times when that was nearest.

Anyway your teacher's advice (and observations on the nature of biting vs hitting etc) seems eminently sensible and worth a go - so thanks again.

It's awful isn't it! I can completely see that your DD2 could bite DD1's face - and your comments about scalp biting really rang true with me - our DD has bitten DS2's head on a number of occasions, luckily he appears to have quite a thick skull. Really you have got to laugh if it wasn't so dreadful! Think I am getting hysterical so had better go and look after the aforementioned DCs - its only 3 pm here! Best of luck.

DS 18 mths is prone to bite me, ds 5 and dd 3. He has bruised and drawn blood on dd, she gets hysterical sometimes if he goes near her (cant blame her)
Think i too have got caught up in telling him off, not comforting the victims as much as i should. Will try that.
The other two went through phases of biting, but not to this extent. Fingers crossed this passes soon.

i think that Tiggy's nursery teacher sounds brilliant, what sensible advice.

I agree that a calm "no biting" and then do as advised by the nursery lady and make a big fuss of the victim. If your dd2 was to carry on biting or do it again straight away then perhaps do as your dh did and give her a minute on her own in her cot, to re-inforce the message that it's only dd1 who is going to get attention....

I think this is much the best way to deal with it, hope it works for you.

Thanks all - fingers crossed ...

Ds is a bit of a biter (only me and dh so far, thankfully) and we are due to have another baby in October so I would be interested in knowing how you get on.

We had a horrendous time with ds biting other children at nursery at this age or possibly slightly older, I'm not sure(although not his sister - fortunately). Think he was taking it out on others. It was happening around 4-5 times A DAY at one stage. This is not unusual behaviour at around this age, although obviously very distressing for everyone concerned. We used stickers for good behaviour (fire engines because he was obssessed at the time)and a treat at the end of the day if he got them all, a lot of praise and more positive attention as well as being sat out for biting and attention going to the victim. It was a concerted effort between us and the nursery staff to get a result. It did need a lot of hard work to change his behaviour but once we really went for it, it probably only took a couple of weeks to make a massive improvement. So if your ds is still doing it when I bit older I would really recommend both the carrot and stick approach.

Thanks petitfilou - it'll be a little while before stickers work for DD2, but worth a try when she gets to that stage. That's the trouble really right now - there aren't many incentives/deterrents you can really offer a 19mo

Franch, my DS had a phase of biting DH and I at around this age. The bites weren't as severe as the ones you're describing but with DS, it was about being unable to articulate himself/temper/wanting attention. So we withdrew attention any time he did it.

It got me so down, the only way to deal with it was to vow not to take it personally. But your poor DD1 won't understand how to do that, probably!

We did a short, sharp 'no biting' (without any pointing/shouting/anger/emotion), followed by moving him out of the way, walking away and doing something else (i.e. totally ignoring him). Making a big fuss of DD1 at this point might help, to show DD2 it's the victim who gets the attention, not the biter.

We tried putting DS in his cot for 'time out' a couple of times...it didn't work cos he was too young to 'get it'. I doubt your DD2 will be 'getting' the naughty step either, but as you say, you want your DD1 to understand that you don't approve of DD2's behaviour towards her!

Do you think DD1 would understand if you tried explaining that DD2 won't be being put on the naughty step any more, but you're going to do 'no biting - move away - ignore' (or whatever you decide to do) when she bites....? You could go on to say that this doesn't mean that you think that the biting is OK, but that you and Daddy don't want to give DD2 attention when she bites....?

We didn't see an absolutely immediate improvement, but it did stop after a few weeks.

It does get better, honestly!

Thanks Magic

we have had this with our twins and someone recommended dabing a drop of vinigar on the tounge of the biter as soon as it happened, there was an improvement almost straight away and after a few goes(touch wood) neither has done it scince.It seemed really harsh to me at firstand i know some wont agree but I was desperate and it worked so I am really glad I tried it.

well to be honest katie I feel that the consistent ignoring of the biter and attention to the victim will have the same effect and is a much better strategy to use. It's a good life lesson to learn that nice people like mum spend time with nice children who don't bite! Not sure what life lesson they are getting from learning that if they bite, mum comes up and gives them some really nasty thing. I just think as the parent it's better to deal with it in a positive way.

I think until you have walked in some ones shoes you cant really judge others, dealing with biting is truly terrible when it is you going through it, it isnt something that can be given 'time' as others are being really hurt by the biting surly a short sharp shock is better than weeks and weeks of a poor child suffering bites that bleed?

katie that is trotted out on here alot, 'you can't judge others' well, it's actually OK to have an opinion and make judgements about what we think is the right way to do something! where would the world be if we didn't judge right and wrong!

However I don't say that your approach was the worst thing I've ever heard, and didn't mean to upset you. My point is that the approach i'd go for may not take weeks and weeks for franch - who's to say it won't be a quick fix - things don't have to be a sharp shock to work.

and why do you assume I haven't 'walked in these shoes' and dealt with biting? i think most mums have!

I had the same thing with ds2 biting ds1. ds2 started about the same age as your dd2. It got worse before it got better. Unfortunately, the only thing that I found to work was to be there all time or have them in the kitchen if I was cooking and as soon as ds2 went to do the deed leap so fast and remove him from the situation that he immediately knew why he had been taken away. I would then tell him why I had done it and he had to sit on the stair till I said so.

It took a while but he did stop. Although, now and again he will still bite ds1 if he gets really fustrated, he is now 4yr. He did bite ds1 last weekend, teeth marks and a bruise round the outside, probably the first time in a year. But now he is older he knew he had done wrong immediately panicked and kept saying he was sorry. I sent him to his room and comforted ds1 then went up to see ds2 and had a good talk to him.

It is quite a shock to the system though when your first child wasnt a biter but your second child is.

Thanks helbel, yes it is a shock isn't it.

I agree sunnyside, the no-attention approach is ideal - but katie's vinegar idea is interesting - and definitely preferable to biting DD2 myself!

sunnysideup didnt mean to sound like id taken offense-i havent, and also didnt mean that you dont know what its like- its really hard to type it like you want to say it, isnt it!!its just I tried the ignoring thing for quite a while and for us it didnt work, the boys were taking chunks out of each other and kids at pre-school all the time, it was a nightmare.I dont smack my three but most things to stop biting are so wishywashy and i would never bite my child this seemed the best of a bad bunch of solutions and as i say it has worked for us.