5yo rude and negative

[Ellieboolou27]

Hi all
Dd1 has just turned 5, she's always been a bit demanding but now she's 5 I thought she'd be easier.
She's mean to other children, on holiday recently I had another child about 8 or 9 come over and tell me she'd smacked another child and called her ugly and stupid. When I asked her to apologise she shouted sorry at the girls but then said she didn't care!

She's extremely jealous of dd2 (who's 2), and says things like "I'm ugly" or "I hate myself" which is really upsetting. She's often quite spiteful towards her sister, like purposely trying to hurt her when I'm not looking.

She's also very hard on herself and tends to give up if she doesn't get it right first time, she doesn't listen to dh or my mum, although ok with the teachers at school and me (most of the time). The school had put her in a nurturing group to try and improve her social skills and confidence and have reported she'd come on leaps and bounds.

She has very little empathy for others, often says things like, that girl is silly mummy, you don't care about her do you, it's like she's desperately insecure.
I'm not sure how to deal with her as it's like she has raging pmt all the time.
Any advise?
I've read divas and dictators, playful parenting and attended a parenting seminar but nothing yet has made an improvement.
Thanks for reading.

Anyone?

What is her behaviour like at school?

Thanks for replying!
Her teacher said she's has improved dramatically in the last six months of the school year, initially when she first started she was reluctant to mix and preferred playing alone, now she's got good friendships and her end of year report commented she is a leader. She can (is) quite stubborn, for example she attends breakfast club and will never say hello or greet the staff, she's been going for a full school year, so it's not shyness, it's embarrassing. If she see's a teacher outside of school in passing, she won't greet them or even look at them!

I was having a really similar discussion with a friend yesterday who has a son who sounds quite similar to yours.
We came to the conclusion that it's just their personalities! We both have four children and each of them very different. My daughter can sound similar to yours, she's very intolerant and wouldn't dream of waving at a teacher if she saw one out of school. The comments do sounds like she wants your attention so puts others down as her way of ensuring you prefer her. Positive attention is what I would do, but when she reverts back to saying unkind things about others I would just say " that's not kind so let's not say that " and move on very quickly.
I really wouldn't worry too much, she's very young and if she's gone from not being very social to now being regarded as a leader I would be pretty proud of her

Thanks twisted yes, my mum has said the same regarding personalities!
I really thought there was something wrong as since dd2 came along she can be really mean and spiteful too, I expected some jealousy, but dd2 is now 2!
Will keep on with the positive praise, thank you for taking the time to respond.

I'm sure when she's older you will be grateful for her strong personality when she's not being easily led by things you don't want her to be! I'm sure it will all work out fine x

Reading with interest as we're having a similar experience with our nearly 6yo who has a 2.3yo brother. Her school report was the most positive thing I have ever read but her behaviour with us is really wearing and relentless esp as we're now deep in school hols. I'm quite relieved to hear people say it's fairly normal as in despair was vaguely considering some sort of psych referral. Rude/shy are the main characteristics. I was signing her up for the summer reading scheme at library the other day and she wouldn't look at or speak to the kind librarian who was doing it for us except to scowl at him. Made me feel really sad as he jokingly said 'oh that's a grumpy face' which just made her ever angrier.

smog yes! It's like when people are kind or complementary she scowls at them, refuses to talk, she also says she doesn't care a lot.
Hope your right twisted I can "just" about manage at her age, at 13/14 if she's still like this, I will leave home 😂
I also asked school if they'd refer her for assessment but she's improved so much they've not pursued it.
At least I'm not alone!

Ellie all so familiar.... v gd to hear not alone. What's the prognosis - how long should we expect this sort of behaviour to go on for? My DD is v up and down - she has charming periods and then back to obstructive for no obvious reason. It's almost worse for us that she's a completely different personality at school.

Not sure how long but I thought by 5 she'd be a bit more socially aware, dd can be stubborn at school, but teachers not concerned.
On holiday she was awful, rude to other girls saying they were ugly and stupid, I was mortified, it's an intense jealousy and total lack of regard for feelings!

That sounds really hard. The holiday bit I mean. Do you feel like the behaviour she's exhibiting isn't really 'her' and worry about how she's perceived? I know I do about my DD and it's awful. and I sometimes find myself trying to 'explain' by saying she's really shy or whatever but feeling like a bit of a fraud.

Yes that's exactly it! I worry I'm labelling her as the "naughty / bad" one as my 2yo is so well behaved, always smiles at everyone etc.

Yes exactly same here although I'm sure our 2yos will have their moments..

May sound obvious...apologies if so... but have you tried telling her repeatedly to say 'Hello' each time you see someone? or insisted she does?

Some kids just are sociable and some not a clue and need to be made to, till they get it.
I used to tell mine exactly what to say before every situation ie in car before school,

What do you say to teachers if you see them in the playground?How do you greet your friends as you go in? What do you always say at the end of the day as you leave?

On arrival at someones house l used to make them say hello to the host before shooting off to play, no excuses, if they didn't l would leave until they did!

Just last week DH collected DS(9) from a party as he ran out, DH asked if he had found the parents to say, Thank you for having me..he hadn't so got marched back to say thanks...

I would say try drumming it in before EVERY encounter, and also challenging her negative comments, some need to be tought empathy, it doesn't come naturally.

It is hard work but better now than at 15....

I've tried hundreds of times to explain this is how we greet people, preparing her to say hello, even just a little wave, just something of a recognition, yet she still defiantly refuses. I think I need to be more firmer and consistent, bad manners are a pet hate of mine.

I've brought books on emotions, angry, sad, happy and scared, it's like she understands but just doesn't give a toss! I will be firmer, when she goes back to breakfast club in September I really want her to be able to say hello / morning to the staff, what could I say to dd to make sure she says it? Any ideas? I felt like saying if you don't say hello then mummy won't pick you up but that's mean

Argh we sound in v similar positions but mine oldest dd is 6, there is a ddof 4 who no 1 is jealous of and mean to and a ds of 2 who they both adore.
Re negative attitude and scant empathy( to sib) - I have struggled to improve herself worth, am struggling to improve her sleep ( she stays up grumbling till 2230 and I have just found out she is worrying about having a bad day if she doesn't get to sleep... ). is your lo's sleep ok? This one used to be a snorer which kept her light. Tonsillectomy helped behaviour quite a lot .
Anyway, what is helping is me teaching her the difference between negative and positive. That there is a choice in words. Telling my littler ones to move away from someone who is being mean to them. We have also introduced a thankful diary. And she seems to be relieved that i am showing her how to be more positive. There is a pasta jar reward chart. Sometimes i ask for 3 things that are good about something she's complained about. Like spinning 'I'm cold' into - you're cold for a second because you've got out of paddling pool , and we can play in the paddling pool together because we're on holiday! ( rucbbliah example but soo tired) . Trying so hard to keep attention feed for positive behaviour. Yes positive parenting good but am sick of being the positive parent- wish oh would pull weight. As constant negativity does bring me down big time- ikwym totally about leaving house if she is still like that at 11- sorry long reply!

Better example-re spinning ' Tonorrow will be even better if I rest my eyes now.'

iglet not a long post but a really helpful one, thank you!
I like the idea of a positive diary, it's something I'm going to try.
Yes, it's exhausting be positive I sometimes feel I'm playing a part for the Brady bunch, all smiles and exaggerated whoops, dh tends to wing her up, tease her but not meaning too.
Her sleep is (finally after first 3 years of hell) really good, bed usually between 7-7.30 on school nights, holidays etc around 8.30, she'll sleep through till 6.30-7 mostly.

Some of it sounds like a touch of social anxiety. People say stupid things when they're anxious, sometimes nasty things.

I wouldn't expect all five year olds to say hello. You can teach it, instruct and remind and praise if she ever does it, but it's like expecting a 14 month old to walk, most do but some don't. They'll all get there in the end and parents don't get so wound up about it. It's only going to stress her more if you demand things from her she can't live up to yet. Do passing teachers or breakfast club staff really care if she says hello or not? And if she sees how much you approve of her smiley sister even though her sister never says hello to anyone that's going to make her more jealous and insecure.

Made me feel really sad as he jokingly said 'oh that's a grumpy face' which just made her ever angrier.

This I wouldn't sweat at all. What did the librarian expect? After all, if I was struggling to keep my temper by an inch and someone joked about my grumpy face it wouldn't make me feel any better! What's more likely to work is the librarian talking about something neutral or asking her to do something helpful. Or just keeping his personal remarks to himself, as Judith Martin (Miss Manners) says "rudeness to a child is still rudeness".

She's mean to other children, on holiday recently I had another child about 8 or 9 come over and tell me she'd smacked another child and called her ugly and stupid.

I would be concerned about this to be honest. How often does it happen? Do you know what let up to it? It's great that she's doing well in school but I'd still be inclined to go back to the health visitor or GP. Siblings do fight and a sweet smiley two year old can deliberately wind up a jealous five year old when Mum's not looking, 5 year old gets it in the neck from Mum and 2 year old is satisfied (speaking from personal experience as an embittered older sister ) but most 5 year olds don't hit other kids. It may be that she's not ready to play by herself with unfamiliar children and still needs more direct support from you and DH.

Thanks Kleinzeit that's a good point (librarian was my scenario). Always useful to get a bit of perspective.

I'm not sure what lead up to the smack, when I asked the girl who's my dd hit she said she wanted to go on the see saw and my dd wouldn't let her, she then started calling her names, I'm not sure how the smack happened as my back was turned and I was running after 2yo.
I so want dd's to be close, I'd hate fot her to feel like the naughty one and develop a complex.

So, she got enraged because the other child wasn't doing what she thought she should do? That might not be a jealousy thing, maybe more to do with being a bit rigid and needing to have other kids do what she thinks right. (My DS was the king of this. He once threw an almighty tantrum because a school playground full of 300 kids wouldn't all play the game he told them. But he has Asperger's so he took things to quite an extreme!)

One book that might come in useful is The Unwritten Rules of Friendship - it's specifically about children with different social skills problems and has lots of practical suggestions. There are chapters on pessimistic children, "born leaders", and intimidating children which includes bullying sibs.

Thank you kleinzeit I will look into getting that book, really helpful as most parenting books are aimed at behaviour rather than social / emotional problems and how to tackle them.

Thanks again

I've just ordered the book, sounds like just what we need!