Supernanny (TV) seems really questionable in hindsight - am I wrong?

[NotTheBelleoftheBall]

I just caught five minutes of Supernanny and by my current beliefs about child rearing it seems really outdated.

I agree with the key elements: boundaries, communication, eating together as a family, helping children understand what behaviour is unacceptable (or 'unasseptable' as Jo says).

But the naughty step? Forced apologies and forced hugs post punishment? That all just seem a bit weird to me. I think I found forcing a stroppy child to hug most jarring.

I know SN is called in when the children/family really need help, so we're not talking about 'normal' behaviour management requirements - but still...

Disclaimer - DD is five months old, I might be all about the naughty step in five years!

When I was younger my mum used to force us to apologise for whatever we'd done wrong. And even after that she'd still be moody and angry for an unspecified time. Days, sometimes.

As an adult I now realise she had some very horrible things going on in her life and really wasn't coping, but dear god I could have done with those hugs and to be affirmatively told that my particular bad deed was done with and that we were friends again, so I didn't spend days thinking I was the cause of her misery.

So def +1 for SN's method from me.

What I'm trying to say is that sorry and thank you are both about the other person's feelings not the child's own. With some children if you wait for them to think "oh I feel so grateful granny cared enough to give me this really ugly doll I must say think you" you'll be waiting forever. And sorry is not so different. Of course we'd all like our children to feel genuinely sorry but sometimes the action has to come before the feeling not after.

Zilpa I agree about the intense emotions. But that makes apologies more difficult than thanks, it doesn't make them less necessary.

If the child is too young to understand other people feelings the parent should be present and apologising / being grateful on their behalf.

If the child is old enough to understand they should have been taught to consider other people's feelings, and that it is 'nice to be nice'. If they have been effectively taught that, sorry and thank you and all the other little gestures that convey warmth should come fairly naturally.

I think forced thank yous and sorrys actually put the focus on the child being expected to say them, which I don't agree with. The focus should be on the other person, and the child should be taught that.

Otherwise you risk ending up with a child who thinks they can just say 'sorry' and then everyone gets on with things - they've done their bit, and haven't stopped to really consider the impact both of their original actions and the word sorry. I've come across people before who say sorry with no real feeling and expect that to just be the end of it. I just find that selfish and a bit patronising tbh.

I thought I was rather anti SN style naughty step etc but as DS is turning into a rather defiant 2 year old I've found myself using similar approaches and it does seem to work for us.

I don't call it a naughty step but I do take him away to what is often the bottom of the stairs, give him a firm reminder of what he has done wrong and why I am cross. He generally looks pretty contrite when faced with my "I am really cross" face so I ask him if he is sorry to which he will generally reply "sorry mummy", we have a quick hug and move on.

But that makes apologies more difficult than thanks, it doesn't make them less necessary.

I agree. They are necessary. But I don't think they should be accepted when given begrudgingly or through a pitiful whine like I see so often on SN. They should be meant. As in, "I genuinely regret hitting you because it hurt you" rather than "fine, I'll say it if that's what you need to hear to take me off this chair". I think it's a bad habit to encourage if you insist on an apology just to hear the words rather than to know they have that feeling. With my DC1 I followed SN but with DC2 and as they have both grown I ask them to go away and think about what should happen next. They both know that an apology isn't a "get out of the consequences" because the consequences happen regardless. If no apology happens I tell them I'm really disappointed they feel their behaviour is acceptable and that I don't expect children I have raised to think that way. There's usually a bit more chat but mine are 7 and 11 so they can understand a bit more than a 3 yo obviously. It's handled differently. But you can tailor that to be 3yo friendly.

I've come across people before who say sorry with no real feeling and expect that to just be the end of it.

I believe that the words and the feeling are mutually reinforcing and one way or another you'd hope to have both in place by adulthood. Not everyone gets there.

you risk ending up with a child who thinks they can just say 'sorry' and then everyone gets on with things

That's what the time out or consequence or the making a big fuss of the victim and not the aggressor are for - so they know that everyone doesn't just get on with things. Still need to apologise as well.

Ahh but if doing SN time out then you don't let them out of time out if they don't apologise. So you are sending the message that saying sorry ends the consequences.

But I don't think they should be accepted when given begrudgingly or through a pitiful whine like I see so often on SN.

On SN they don't say it just to get off the chair, however unwillingly they say it they want to be forgiven and to know they've been forgiven. When they are allowed off the chair they know that's happened. They may not even have much of a clue that they hurt their parent (young children believe parents are invincible) and saying sorry is part of the process of both realising they've done wrong and of trying to put it right.

I agree with consequences for actions which is basically what Jo teaches, I also see the value of a time out space for a child to calm down and reflect, and yes i believe in teaching a child to apologise. To me an apology is an acceptance of responsibility for hurt / harm caused, its an an acknowledgement, its good to teach kids to acknowledge when they have made a mistake and upset someone. Its also a form of basic good manners just like please or thank you, kids who refuse to apologise always make me raise my eyebrows im afraid.

Supernanny is often about educating the parents, most of them just cannot see the mistakes they are making, or can see but have no idea how to fix it.

I use the naughty step for my 4yo and probably will with my nearly 2yo too. We don't call it the 'naughty' step though. Just 'the step'.

Seems to work quite well for us. It gives dd1 the time to calm down so we can talk to her rationally about what she did and why it was wrong. We don't use it often at all now. Maybe once a week?

Have used her return to bed techniques in the past too and they've worked well with eldest although youngest is still in a cot and I do feel we will have our work cut out when we make the transition to a bed.

I haven't watched her show for ages and maybe some of her techniques are outdated now but from what I remember there was a lot of common sense advice too

That's what I was trying to get at Zilphas

I think most people agree being able to say sorry meaningfully is an important social skill. A technique like SNs isn't the best way to achieve that I think.

I used it with my first and not my other three.

I realised it was more important to help the kids reflect on their behaviour in a more meaningful constructive way.

I agree with all Jo Frosts tactics and my children are 1,3&5 and all sleep/eat/behave well.

The naughty step is a fantastic tool when used correctly and is very effective.

Her return to bed technique is brilliant! I used it with my eldest. For some mad reason I co-slept with my youngest so never really got round to doing a return to bed technique. Why the fuck not I'll never know as he still fucks about aged 7.

Agree batteries

On SN they don't say it just to get off the chair,

Oh they do!! Definitely some of them do.

Totally agree with Herena. My DH makes DD(4) say sorry, but I prefer to explain to her how I feel about what she's done and then she can say sorry in her own time. I just
try to be as honest as possible so she understands the consequences of her actions.

Today she hit, kicked and bit me during a tantrum - travelling to holiday destination, long story. I tried to ignore it, I tried to stop her, nothing worked and in the end I just got down to her level, let her see how upset I was and told her I needed her to stay away from me because she was really hurting me and I wasn't going to let her hurt me. I stayed distant from her for a while and she then came and asked if I was feeling better and opened her arms for a hug. Later she said sorry and I believe she meant it.

If she's made to say sorry, it's usually with a smirk. Sounds delightful doesn't she?!

my children are 1,3&5 and all sleep/eat/behave well.

Oh the glibbness of this!
You have hardly started!

I just want to repeat, so much is down to personality. Sometimes you need three different discipline methods on a house for 3 different kids.

Time out (I never called it the naughty step, naughty to me is a horrible word)
But time out has been really important for my kids. Once I realised that ds needed to calm down first before we did anything, we used time out. Didn't need to for dd1, then really need it for dd2.

Mine are now 14, 12 and 9, and for both the oldest and youngest we still use the time out principle. It is just expresses differently. Please go to your room while you calm down and think about the way you are behaving. Once you are ready to talk in a calm way with us you can come back down. Cue storming off shouting and screaming and banging doors. Usually about 20-30 minutes later they reappear, and are ready to sort out the problem.

Forced sorries have their place. They make the child you've just hurt feel a bit better.

If they are old enough to care about sorry they are old enough to read the emotion behind it - if you teach a child a forced sorry makes them feel better I think that's a bit screwed up tbh. Teaching them to accept words over meaning.

Sorry only means something if you mean it.

No I disagree totally. Teaching your child they don't have to say sorry unless they want to makes it all about them and that their feelings matter more than the people they've hurt. Which is probably why this behaviour is only seen in the most unpleasant children with the most entitled parents.

I think there are two types of time out and two types of tantrums.

Time out 1:
Any time the child is disobedient they are put to time out for x amount of time. When time is up they come out.

Time out 2:
Child is in time out until they are calm and ready to come out, they make the call not the parents.

Tantrum 1:
I want an ice cream, mum says no a fit ensues

Tantrum 2:
I am really overhelmed due to tiredness, hunger, my brother stealing my toys.

We use time out option 2 for tantrum number 1.

If we are at a home the child being aggressive/disruptive due to not getting what they want is calmly told "I can see you are frustrated but you are disrupting he family and none of us like it, please go and calm down until you are ready to join us" sometimes you can tell the child needs an adult to sit with them for a while other times the child prefers to be left alone with their books etc.

They always emerge on their own ready to integrate with the group.

We don't do time out number 1.

Tantrum number 2 is always handled with calm soothing actions to remedy the tiredness hunger or frustration. Most of the number 2 tantrums can be prevented by thinking ahead.

We also use " Stand to decide " (picked this up from dr. Sears)
Let's say you ask a child to tidy up their toys, they refuse (note you will have warned them that tidy up time is coming soon)
The refusing child is then moved to the side, and told to stand there (there is no isolation of wall facing) until they are ready to decide to help.
We have a very stubborn child who once chose to stand to the side instead of going to the beach (we were tidying up to leave to go the beach)
He now does what we say first time.

I don't want blindly obedient children, I don't want children who do forced apologies but I do expect children to pitch in and work cooperatively within the dynamics of our family.

I think I've done ok in my minuscule parenting experience. (5,3 and pregnant)

I think everyone on this thread has agreed the feelings of the hurt child are most important, need to be kindly handled and amends made.

The disagreeemnt is over whether forcing a sorry is the way to do that.

I don't think it's accurate to jump from 'no forced sorry' to selfish / entitled / other child's feelings aren't prioritised.

*Time out 1:
Any time the child is disobedient they are put to time out for x amount of time. When time is up they come out.

Time out 2:
Child is in time out until they are calm and ready to come out, they make the call not the parents.

Tantrum 1:
I want an ice cream, mum says no a fit ensues

Tantrum 2:
I am really overhelmed due to tiredness, hunger, my brother stealing my toys.

We use time out option 2 for tantrum number 1.*

This makes a lot of sense to me, I'll remember this.